Title: 9/11 UAL 175 Plane on Radar AFTER It Has 'Crashed' Into The WTC; (MSNBC) Source:
, URL Source:http://, Published:Mar 16, 2009 Author:msnbc Post Date:2009-03-16 13:04:41 by Artisan Ping List:*9-11*Subscribe to *9-11* Keywords:None Views:12561 Comments:607
What, is he saying that the WTC was NOT designed to withstand the impact of a 707?
Once again for the Fuctionally Stupid:
The two towers were the first structures outside of the military and nuclear industries designed to resist the impact of a jet airliner, the Boeing 707. It was assumed that the jetliner would be lost in the fog, seeking to land at JFK or at Newark. To the best of our knowledge, little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires.
Ther3e you go again...you posted that above and were shown to be incorrect:
Are you trying to say that the rising smoke is actual damage to the building? It was only several floors that had exterior damage, and that was restricted to the entry and exit points. The load of the upper floors was still being supported by the central core, and very little load was distributed about the exterior walls, which themselves were steel columns of which only relatively small sections were damaged.
In fact, there is very little apparent damage to the exterior wall's steel columns from the images you posted, just flames shooting out of broken windows.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Are you trying to say that the rising smoke is actual damage to the building?
Nope.
Want to guess again? Maybe if you read what you stated and then carry that context over the the picture it might hit you. I'm not optoimistic tho.
It was only several floors that had exterior damage, and that was restricted to the entry and exit points.
Bullshit...the planes exploded inside the building...I am stumped for an apy adjective to quantify the level of stupidity required ot believe that such an explosion was confined only to the "entry and exit" points. Your claim is that the plane hit the towers...did nothing until it rached the next wall at which time it exploded outward doing no damage in between. My IQ alone dropped 65 points tyoing it...I can imagine how much iot has to drop to actually ***think*** that.
In fact, there is very little apparent damage to the exterior wall's steel columns
little was known about the effects of a fire from such an aircraft, and no designs were prepared for that circumstance. Indeed, at that time, no fireproofing systems were available to control the effects of such fires.
--Leslie Robertson, Cheif Structural Engineer WTC
Wherever you obtained that quote apparently can't even spell the word CHIEF.
What you fail to consider is that the fires did not burn hot enough to weaken the structure. The thermal energy released by the office fires was not sufficient to heat any steel support members to a point where they would weaken.
Regardless, how do you explain the fact that it only took several seconds to demolish 100 floors of undamaged steel and concrete?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Bullshit...the planes exploded inside the building...
Bullshit. The majority of the jet fuel exploded OUTSIDE of the buildings and resulted in massive fireballs, as any video of the impacts would show.
Yes there was SOME fuel that burned inside the building, yet there were survivors from the very floors that were impacted, so there was not a massive explosion INSIDE the building as you claim. Well, not from the impacts at least, those explosions came later...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Maybe if you read what you stated and then carry that context over the the picture it might hit you.
Post either of the two images and point out the actual damage to the exterior columns.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Inertia? It was at rest, so its inertia would have been to RESIST motion in any direction.
Gravity? It was designed to SUPPORT a MASSIVE load.
The pancake theory insists that the trusses buckled and caused a collapse of the FLOORS but does not accout for the damage to the CORE. The CORE could NOT pancake as it was a rigid structure.
Try again.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
The steel was not pulverized...they only things that were pulverized were oobjets that could be pulverized.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Again, you fail to address the question as to why it only took several seconds to demolish 100 floors of undamaged steel and concrete.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
"CERTIFIED STEEL COMPONENTS USED IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE WTC BUILDINGS"!
The collapse of the WTC by Kevin Ryan Site Manager Environmental Health Laboratories A Division of Underwriters Laboratories Thursday, Nov 11, 2004
...the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements.
...
"We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2)."
STACKING UP While site concrete was largely pulverized into fine dust, huge quantities of damaged structural steel lay in tangled heaps throughout the former 16-acre WTC site. "I saw I-beams stacked six stories high," says Allen Morse, chief debris expert for the Army Corps of Engineers, a technical advisor to the Federal Emergency Management Agency. He says steel could make up to as much as half of the site's estimated 1.2 million tons of wreckage. "You can't move machinery around unless you plan for it," adds Morse.
To accelerate steel removal, Weeks Marine Inc. has created two steel offloading areas that ramped up operations last week to transport debris by barge for recycling. The sites are located at Pier 25 on the Hudson River and at Pier 6 at the tip of lower Manhattan. The city's usual garbage removal facilities, which is handling smaller site debris, could not accommodate steel pieces.
Weeks was still dredging the Pier 25 site even as trucks began delivering steel to the site for offloading by crane to barges that can hold up to 3,000 tons. "That's equivalent to 150 truckloads," says Weeks Senior Vice President George Wittich. Business was slow at first as truck-drivers maneuvered through the site and city streets and had to pass muster with FBI officials checking for evidence. One site source says security was beefed up after some drivers sold steel privately to scrap dealers.
Wittich says the city has awarded contracts to two private scrap dealers to handle 50,000 tons of steel. The rest is expected to be used to create offshore artificial reefs or head for "upland" disposal. While the company obtained dredging permits in seemingly record time, environmental permits for steel disposal have yet to be issued. "The rate that the stuff can be brought to the reef is less than what's coming out," says Weeks President Richard S. Weeks. Wittich says larger steel debris, as big as 30 tons, may be used for slurry wall stabilization.
Picture (L): For the second chapter — On September 11th — the team sought items to represent the hellish forces unleashed that day. "We saw a lot of pieces like this," said Wagner. "Typically, when steel bends, it buckles and tears. The smooth bend on this piece shows the steel became malleable — a pretty good indication of how hot it was."
RICH GARLOCK: Going below, it was smoky and really hot. We had rescue teams with meters for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They also had temperature monitors. Here WTC 6 is over my head. The debris past the columns was red-hot, molten, running. I did some quick numbers with Gary Panariello, an engineer from Thornton-Tomasetti, to try and determine what the load on WTC 6 was and how much of the lateral system of the building the contractor could take down. There were a lot of judgment calls; people had immediate needs and needed immediate responses.
Picture (R) - More Bent Steel "This piece has a ribbon-like quality to it," noted Wagner. "It's like it just crumpled when it hit the ground." Engineers have noted that many of the Towers' girders were contorted into shapes unreplicable by any machine.
Some 200,000 tons of structural steel encased and supported the Twin Towers. This piece was saved as a reminder of each building's distinctive skeleton.
The core columns were massive indeed runninng up 1000 feet from the bedrock and welded together in multi-story sections. The wall of these boxes were from two to five inches thick.
Many posters have referenced the adiabatic flame temperature at which kerosene burns (just shy of 1800° F) which is a theoretical maximum oxidation temperature not even achieved within jet engines, when in reality at standard pressure and temperature in an open flame, kerosene burns at a maximum 575° F in a well ventilated environment.
It is difficult to imagine that such massive core structures could seriously have been weakened by an aromatic liquid fueled fire, viz. the high rise holocausts in Madrid, Colombia and Shanghai. To take this kind of damage at face value, one would have to discount not only the much higher temperatures required to weaken or melt steel, but also ignore the ability of such a large volume of steel to conduct great quantities of heat away from its source.
Many posters have referenced the adiabatic flame temperature at which kerosene burns (just shy of 1800° F) which is a theoretical maximum oxidation temperature not even achieved within jet engines, when in reality at standard pressure and temperature in an open flame, kerosene burns at a maximum 575° F in a well ventilated environment.
575° F?
Ovens can get hotter than that.
I believe you though.
The WTC towers were demolished by elements withing our government and stooges are paid to try to keep a lid on it. They might want to think about firing war though, he is not feeling well.
This link was possibly posted here before but in case it hasn't appeared before, I thought it was informative because it was a site associated with 622 architects and engineers, who dispute the official 9/11 gubment story:
622 architectural and engineering professionals... and 3252 other supporters including A&E students have signed the petition demanding of Congress a truly independent investigation.
This what Frank A. DeMartini, WTC construction and project manager said...
quote: "The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it, that was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building could probably sustain multiple impacts of jet liners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door - this intense grid - and the plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting."
WTC 7's location Building 7 occupied a city block immediately north of the World Trade Center complex. WTC 1 through WTC 6 were on the superblock bounded by West, Church, Liberty, and Vesey Streets. Building 7 was wedged between the Verizon and U.S. Post Office buildings across Vesey Street from the WTC complex. It straddled an electrical substation that filled the first two stories of about half the block.
People who have heard of Building 7 tend to assume that 'ancillary damage' from the collapses of the Twin Towers had something to do with Building 7's collapse. It is important to note that Building 7 was no closer to the towers than any of several other large buildings outside of the WTC complex. The wall of Building 7 closest to the WTC complex was more than 300 feet from the nearest wall of the North Tower. It appears that nearly all of the heavy fallout from the disintegration of the North Tower landed short of Building 7. Building 6 stood between the North Tower and Building 7.
Absent any greater and opposite force, It had no choice but to drop straight down once the center of gravity was horizontally established.
Hey moron, there was something in the way of it dropping straight down, and it was called the WORLD TRADE CENTER. Are you that fucking insane that you think the entire structure of the WTC was actually an illusion, that it was really thin air?
The top of the tower had started to topple over, indicating one corner of the supporting structure below had failed. It should have continued in that direction, ABSENT ANY OTHER FORCE (or removal of an existing opposing force).
Only a TOTAL and INSTANTANEOUS collapse of the structure below (OR the possibility that the steel core had remained intact and the top of the tower actually SLID down the core) could explain the way it dropped DOWN instead of TUMBLING over.
Being that there would have been incredible resistance to such a fall from the supporting structure below AND the central core, the core should have burst out of the upwards angled side of the upper tower and the top of the tower should have toppled, since it was already on an angle and would have had horizontal forces acting upon it EVEN as it fell downwards. Considering the core was tapered as you so unthinkingly recite, the gradually thickening core would have provided increasing resistance to the top of the tower, slowing it down to where it should have STOPPED sliding down it IF it was in fact doing so.
Only a total and absolute demolition of ANY and ALL supporting structures below AND WITHIN (including the steel core) PRIOR to impact from the falling structure would explain the manner in which the towers collapsed.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
As you can seee, there were elevators within the core. Furthermore, the core was reliant on the exterior support beams to relieve it of being the lone horizontal load bearing mechanism.
There was not a hurricane going on that day, so resistance to horizonal force is not a factor. It's the VERTICAL support that mattered. Regardless, the majority of the exterior support columns were intact.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
911 Mysteries: Demolitions is the film that did the most to wake me up to the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center on 9/11. I highly recommend that everyone watch this film. If you want to know the truth about 9/11 please watch.
This what Frank A. DeMartini, WTC construction and project manager said...
quote: "The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it, that was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building could probably sustain multiple impacts of jet liners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door - this intense grid - and the plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting."
That's it. I've previously referenced the temperature from more authoritative sites which I can't find at the moment, but I'll cite WikiAnswers on this one.
I'm going out to the garage to do some fabrication work. Got some kerosene out there, and I think that I've got a thermometer that will go that high. I'll run a little experiment later and tell you how it turned out.
The top of the tower did topple over as you've been shown...
BTW, you contradict yourself here. Did it topple or did it drop staight down? It's easy to see the answer on various videos, but I'd like you to admit that it couldn't have done BOTH.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
This 110-story steel-framed office building suffered a fire on the 11th floor on February 13, 1975. The loss was estimated at over $2000000. ... www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc_1975_fire.html - 9k - Cached -
The top of the tower did topple over as you've been shown...
BTW, you contradict yourself here. Did it topple or did it drop staight down? It's easy to see the answer on various videos, but I'd like you to admit that it couldn't have done BOTH.
I know what I saw in the videos....and it is a physical impossibility for it to do both.
Me: Oh and BTW, there were no "raging fires", there was a bit of a diesel fire inside but nothing close to a "raging fire".
war: You're out of your fucking mind. Do I need to post yet even more pictures showing how stupid you are?
You're busted. I just noticed you posted an image of WTC5 trying to pass it off as an image of WTC7. The image properties indicate the file name is http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/docs/wtc5_fire_floors.jpg, which shows that image depicts Building 5 not Building 7.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Me: The individuals listed as the hijackers are not said to be using aliases
war: If they weren't who they said that then what else could they have been using?
Huh? Are you even an American? You don't speak the language very well...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
So.......were they wrong then or wrong after 9/11...."what steel frames"?????
lol!
That the 1975 fire was more intense than the 9/11 fires is evident from the fact that it caused the 11th floor east side windows to break and flames could be seen pouring from these broken windows. This indicates a temperature greater than 700°C. In the 9/11 fires the windows were not broken by the heat (only by the aircraft impact) indicating a temperature below 700°C.
So now you know that the WTC towers were well designed and quite capable of surviving a serious fire. I repeat that this was a very hot fire that burnt through the open-plan office area of the eleventh floor and spread up and down the central core area for many floors. This was a serious fire.
Original Scans from archived issues of The New York Times. on 9/11 the fires burned for much shorter times and were the official cause of collapse. We have also recently seen other tall steel buildings burn for hours and stay standing.
#372. To: war, Original_Intent, ALL (#194)(Edited)
Oh and BTW war, I also noticed you used screenshots from a flash presentation provided by the GOVERNMENT for its case against Zacarias Moussaoui. These are NOT flight manifests, but simply a visual aid created by the government.
As far as the FLIGHT MANIFESTS, well, go ahead and find them...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
B) I posted a chart above showing that the collapse took time well in excess of free fall speed.
It must not have been very large or colorful since I can't find it anywhere on this thread. Please point out which post it was, and/or repost the chart.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
Oh and BTW war, I also noticed you used screenshots from a flash presentation provided by the GOVERNMENT for its case against Zacarias Moussaoui. These are NOT flight managests, but simply a visual aid created by the government.
As far as the FLIGHT MANIFESTS, well, go ahead and find them...
None of the official hijackers of the Sep11th-attack appeared on the original manifest of the passenger list.
Here is the official info about these "hijackers". Many of the real identities are still alive. The FBI ignored these facts during 2001-2002 and never updated their suspect list.
Another particularly important part of this is to note that Towers one, two, and seven have all of the 10 characteristics of a controlled demolition, a building collapsing from fire and plane impact damage having one of the characteristics of controlled demolition is astronomically rare, the chances of this damage having all 10 characteristics of a controlled demolition and not being a controlled demolition is next to nil. These characteristics are.
1. Each collapse occurred at virtually free fall speed;
2. Each building collapsed straight down, for the most part onto its own footprint;
3. Virtually all the concrete was turned into very fine dust;
4. In the case of the Twin Towers, the dust was blown out horizontally for 200 feet or more;
5. The collapses were total, leaving no steel columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air;
6. Videos of the collapses reveal "demolition waves", meaning "confluent rows of small explosions";
7. Most of the steel beams and columns came down in sections that were no more than 30 feet long;
8. According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings;
9. Each collapse was associated with detectable seismic vibrations (suggestive of underground explosions);
10. Each collapse produced molten steel (which would be produced by explosives), resulting in "hot spots" that remained for months.?
Oh, one other bit of info war. You know that picture you misidentified as WTC7 where it was actually an image of WTC5, well that is captioned as follows in the following link...
Figure 4-13 from the FEMA Report shows WTC5 burning, with labeled floors.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
![[Sept11Wiki]](/img/moin-inter.gif){kind=small}