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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: What became of War?
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Apr 20, 2009
Author: me
Post Date: 2009-04-20 21:38:39 by Critter
Keywords: None
Views: 2700
Comments: 167

Ain't seen that shilly dimwit for a bit. Did he get canned for inferior shilliness?

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

Mr. Cole had knowledge of certain activities that directly related to the terror attacks on September 11, 2001.

According to you Moonbats it was an inside job...how could it be a terror attack?

war  posted on  2009-04-22   12:27:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Coleen Rowley, Retired Division Counsel; FBI - In May 2002, Coleen Rowley, as the Division Counsel at the FBI Minneapolis Office, blew the whistle on the FBI’s failure to pursue Zacarias Moussaoui’s case prior to 9/11, despite all attempts made by the Minneapolis division counterterrorism agents. She reported that FBI HQ personnel in Washington, D.C., had mishandled and neglected to take action on information provided by her division. Despite her high-profile case the commission chose not to interview Ms. Rowley. According to Ms. Rowley, no one from the FBI Minneapolis Office (several Agents had direct information) was ever asked to provide testimony, information, to the 9/11 Commission.

You, yourself have ssaid that the planes were simply a diversion.

war  posted on  2009-04-22   12:28:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You, yourself have ssaid that the planes were simply a diversion.

Of course they were. They camoflauged the sounds of explosions, as well as much of the other visual signs from the controlled demolition.

It wasn't an "either or" event.

They both happened.

Duh.

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   12:58:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Former Lurker is on bozo...is he still trying to post to me?

What a brave thing to do little man, hide behind the filter yet continue to spread your venom and lies here on this forum. It's awfully funny you respond directly to me at times when you wish to launch insults and lies, yet totally ignore my posts when I post proof and facts which you claim doesn't exist.

You're just a little weasle playing a little game here. The game is called trolling.

Tell your fellow Moonie here that the comment referred to "engineers" and not "engineers and architects".

Somebody tell war that he is lying. In post 42 war responds to TwentyTwelves' post 41...

#41. To: war, Former_Lurker (#40)

Post some proof that there are 100K engineers and architects who approve of the 9/11 Commission's findings.

How many enginners are there?

Proof that there are 100K engineers and architects who approve of the 9/11 Commission's findings.

TwentyTwelve posted on 2009-04-21 13:22:27 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#42. To: TwentyTwelve (#41)

The proof is on this thread, moron. There aren't even 600 of them who object to it...

Math is an issue with you?

war posted on 2009-04-21 13:26:09 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

He didn't have a whole lot to say about those 660+ engineers and architects who question the 9/11 report. In fact, since it directly and absolutely proved his assertions wrong, it appears he put his tail between his legs and ran off.

It's obvious that war is playing a dishonest little game here. He asks people for a hard count of how many engineers and architects oppose the official 9/11 story (on another thread), is shown the answer twice on that thread, then claims that he never saw the information..

THEN he makes up a number, claims that there are that many who side with the government story, with ZERO proof of the number he fabricated and ZERO evidence that number of people would side with the government story.

Then he tries to play word games as to whether he was talking about apples, oranges, or apples and oranges.

It's obvious that war is enjoying trolling this forum.

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-04-22   13:22:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

According to you Moonbats it was an inside job...how could it be a terror attack?

You love to twist words around don't you shillster...

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-04-22   13:24:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There are 125K enginners in the professional organization that assisted both FEMA and NIST in the 9/11 report.

Prove it. And what exactly is an enginner anyways? Does he sweep the floor for ENGINEERS?

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-04-22   13:28:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Then he tries to play word games as to whether he was talking about apples, oranges, or apples and oranges.

It's obvious that war is enjoying trolling this forum.

Completely obvious.

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   13:31:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They camoflauged the sounds of explosions...

ROFLMAO...hold on, hold on...I need to make popcorn...

war  posted on  2009-04-22   13:50:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Completely obvious.

ALWAYS milk a laugh...

war  posted on  2009-04-22   13:50:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

IS FL trying to post to me still? He does know he's on filter?

war  posted on  2009-04-22   13:51:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They both happened.

Chuckles...and if the hijakings were somehow thwarted...what was "Plan B"?

war  posted on  2009-04-22   13:52:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

IS FL trying to post to me still? He does know he's on filter?

As FL pointed out, that only happens after you demand he post information to you...then, back he goes onto your filter.

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   13:54:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

IS FL trying to post to me still? He does know he's on filter?

Hey troll, I know that you read my posts and more than likely don't really have me on bozo. Why would you have me on bozo, is it that I made your little head hurt with so many facts that you can't or don't want to understand?

FormerLurker  posted on  2009-04-22   13:55:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Why would you have me on bozo, is it that I made your little head hurt with so many facts that you can't or don't want to understand?

lolol!

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   13:56:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

if the hijakings were somehow thwarted...what was "Plan B"?

Don't you remember, they "were" in PA?

Where's the remains of the Plane??

Some believe it was taken out via missile.

You're too easy, war.

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   13:58:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I last posted to him on 4/14 as I saw that post PRIOR to signing in...before that I hadn't posted to him in 2 weeks.

When I am signed in...I cannot see his posts...thanks to the "CHECK PING" function here...I don't have to wade through nonsense...so, if I am not signed in, I sign in first and then hit check pings...

Regardless, it doesn;t matter whether it's you, FL, Jonsie or whomever...you coninutally ignore reality...you raise faux or meaningless objections - as this latest one is...as if I wouldn't realize that a fringe group of architects and engineers who banded together for the sole purpose of being Moonbats and whom all of YOU Moonies cite here, banded together for the purpose of being...wait for it...Moonbats...

war  posted on  2009-04-22   14:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Where are the remains of the AirTran plane that caught fire and crashed into the Everglades?

war  posted on  2009-04-22   14:03:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

DEBUNKING THE 911 OMISSION REPORT:

The following Veteran National Security experts were turned away, ignored, or censored by the 9/11 Commission, even though they had direct and relevant information related to the Commission’s investigation:

John M. Cole, Former Veteran Intelligence Operations Specialist; FBI - Mr. Cole worked for 18 years in the FBI’s Counterintelligence Division as an Intelligence Operations specialist, and was in charge of FBI’s foreign intelligence investigations covering India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Mr. Cole had knowledge of certain activities that directly related to the terror attacks on September 11, 2001. He notified the 9/11 Commission during its investigation, but never received a response. His name and contact information was provided to the Commission as a key witness by other witnesses, but he was never contacted or interviewed.

John Vincent, Retired Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI - Mr. Vincent worked for the FBI for 27 1/2 years before retiring in 2002. He worked his last 8 years in counterterrorism in the FBI’s Chicago Field Office. Mr. Vincent, along with Robert Wright, exposed inefficiencies within the FBI in working counterterrorism cases, and certain warnings they had tried to pursue prior to the 9/11 attack that were directly related to Al-Qaeda’s financial network and money laundering activities. Although he was granted an interview, the commissioners’ investigators refused to let him provide them with information related to his case and the 9/11 terrorists network; they insisted on limiting the interview to only administrative and irrelevant questions and issues.

Robert Wright, Veteran Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI - Mr. Wright is a veteran special agent in the FBI Chicago Field Office Counterterrorism Unit. He had been investigating a suspected terrorist cell for three years, when he was informed in January 2001 that the case was being closed. Agent Wright, along with Mr. Vincent, exposed inefficiencies within the FBI in working counterterrorism cases and certain warnings they’d tried to pursue prior to the 9/11 attack that were directly related to Al-Qaeda’s financial network and money laundering activities. Three months before September 11, Wright wrote a stinging internal memo charging that the FBI was not interested in thwarting a terrorist attack, but rather "was merely gathering intelligence so they would know who to arrest when a terrorist attack occurred." The FBI refused to allow Wright to testify before the 9/11 Commission, however, the Commission did not insist or attempt to subpoena Wright; despite the fact that it had subpoena power.

Sibel Edmonds, Former Language Specialist; FBI - Ms. Edmonds worked for the FBI’s Washington Field Office as a language specialist with Top Secret Clearance performing translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations dealing with Turkey, Iran, and Turkic speaking Central Asian countries. She contacted the 9/11 Commission in May 2003 and requested a meeting to provide them with information directly related to the terrorist attack. The Commission investigators refused to meet with Edmonds and informed her that due to their limited resources and time they were not going to interview all witnesses. She was able to provide the commission with information and documents only after certain 9/11 family members intervened directly. Ms. Edmonds’ testimony was completely censored by the Commission.

Behrooz Sarshar, Former Language Specialist; FBI - Mr. Sarshar worked for the FBI’s Washington Field Office as a language specialist with Top Secret Clearance performing Farsi translations for counterterrorism and counterintelligence operations dealing with Iran and Afghanistan. He had first- hand information of prior specific warning obtained from a reliable informant in April 2001 on the terrorist attacks of September 11. Mr. Sarshar contacted the Commission directly but was refused. He was given an interview with the Commission investigators only after 9/11 family members intervened directly. Mr. Sarshar’s documented testimony was completely omitted from the commission’s final report, despite his case being publicly confirmed by Director Mueller’s Office.

Mike German, Special Agent, Counterterrorism; FBI - Mr. German served sixteen years as an FBI Special Agent and is one of the rare agents credited with actually having prevented acts of terrorism before it became the FBI's number one priority. He contacted the Commission in the spring of 2004, but did not receive a response. In 2002 he reported gross mismanagement in a post 9/11- counterterrorism investigation, which included serious violations of FBI policy and federal law. Mr. German contacted the 9/11 Commission during its investigation and requested that he be given an interview session in order to provide them with certain domestic counterterrorism investigations that he’d pursued. According to Mr. German there were links between certain domestic and international counterterrorism related to the September 11 attacks. The 9/11 Commissioners refused to acknowledge his request and never interviewed him.

Gilbert Graham, Retired Special Agent, Counterintelligence; FBI - Mr. Graham worked for the FBI’s Washington Field Office Counterintelligence Division until 2002. In February 2004 his name and contact information were provided to the Commission as a key witness with information pertinent to the Commission’s investigation. The 9/11 Commission refused to follow up and never contacted Mr. Graham.

Coleen Rowley, Retired Division Counsel; FBI - In May 2002, Coleen Rowley, as the Division Counsel at the FBI Minneapolis Office, blew the whistle on the FBI’s failure to pursue Zacarias Moussaoui’s case prior to 9/11, despite all attempts made by the Minneapolis division counterterrorism agents. She reported that FBI HQ personnel in Washington, D.C., had mishandled and neglected to take action on information provided by her division. Despite her high-profile case the commission chose not to interview Ms. Rowley. According to Ms. Rowley, no one from the FBI Minneapolis Office (several Agents had direct information) was ever asked to provide testimony, information, to the 9/11 Commission.

Lieutenant Colonel Anthony Shaffer, DIA - Colonel Shaffer provided the Commission with detailed information on intelligence and pre warning information obtained by his unit’s data mining project, Able Danger. The 9/11 commission staff received not one but two briefings on Able Danger from Mr. Shaffer and his former team members, yet did not pursue the case, did not follow up on this documented report and refused to subpoena the relevant files. Mr. Shaffer’s testimony, together with other witnesses who corroborated his testimony and information, were censored by the 9/11 Commissioners and never made it to its final report.

Dick Stoltz, Retired Special Agent; ATF- Mr. Stoltz, a veteran undercover agent with the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, had played an important role in Operation Diamondback between 1998 and 2001. The sting operation involved a group of Middle Eastern men living in New Jersey who were caught on tape in an ATF weapons sting conspiring to buy millions of dollars of weapons including components for nuclear bombs. The case came to a screeching halt with the arrest of only a handful of suspects in June of 2001 even though there was ample evidence that some of the people who were attempting to buy these weapons had connections with the Taliban, Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden himself. The 9/11 Commission refused to contact Agent Stoltz despite all attempts made by several witnesses from the intelligence & Law Enforcement Communities, and the 9/11 Family group, Jersey Moms.

Bogdan Dzakovic, Former Red Team Leader; FAA - Mr. Dzakovic had worked for the Security Division of the Federal Aviation Administration since 1987 as a Special Agent, as a Team Leader in the Federal Air Marshals, and from 1995 until September 11, 2001 was a Team Leader of the Red Team (terrorist team). Mr. Dzakovic had tried for several years prior to the 9-11 attacks to improve aviation security in the face of the ever-increasing terrorist threat. He provided the 9/11 Commission with his testimony and documented reports. His testimony and report to the Commission was completely omitted from the final report.

Linda Lewis, Retired Emergency Programs Specialist; USDA - Ms. Lewis worked for 13 years evaluating and coordinating federal, state and local preparedness for nuclear, radiological and chemical weapons emergencies. Prior to September 11, 2001, she had reported numerous inadequacies and dysfunctions in emergency preparedness, including a culture of intimidation that discouraged federal evaluators from reporting inadequacies in state and local plans and preparedness. USDA officials had thwarted her efforts to bring in terrorism experts to help the agency prepare for attacks on federal buildings, including bio-weapons attacks such as the anthrax attacks of 2001. In vain, she had urged FEMA officials to develop a national emergency communications plan and require interoperability of federally funded emergency communications equipment. In the absence of these preparations, New York City firefighters and police officers were unable to communicate critical information on September 11 at the World Trade Center. Ms. Lewis contacted the Commission and offered to provide information regarding dysfunctional government preparedness, but the Commission never responded.

Mark Burton, Senior Analyst; NSA – Mr. Burton served as an all-source threat analyst in NSA’s Information Assurance Directorate (IAD) for most of his 16- year career. He was the editor of IAD’s premier threat document; the 300+ page ISSO Global Threat Summary, and was an adjunct faculty member at NSA’s National Cryptologic School. He provided dozens of pages of relevant information to the 9/11 Commission, but was completely ignored and never asked to testify.

The above list does not include many others from the intelligence and law enforcement communities who had similarly contacted or reported to the commission but had been either turned away or censored, and of course many others’ who are still working within these agencies and are fearful of making their identities known, due to the relentless pursuit of and retaliation against whistleblowers by government agencies.

CREDIBLE CRITICS OF THE OFFICIAL ACCOUNT OF 9/11

Twenty-five U.S. Military Officers Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11 “Impossible”, “A Bunch of Hogwash”, “Total B.S.”, “Ludicrous”, “A Well-Organized Cover-up”, “A White-Washed Farce” Jan. 14, 2008 PDF Version Article on OpEdNews

Eight U.S. State Department Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11 "Flawed", "Absurd", "Totally Inadequate", "a Cover-up" Jan. 5, 2008 PDF Version Article on OpEdNews

Seven Senior Federal Engineers and Scientists Call for New 9/11 Investigation – Official Account of 9/11 "Impossible", "Hogwash", "Fatally Flawed" Dec. 13, 2007 PDF Version Article on OpEdNews

Eight Senior Republican Administration Appointees Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – "Not Possible", "a Whitewash", "False" Dec. 4, 2007 PDF Version Article on OpEdNews

Seven CIA Veterans Challenge 9/11 Commission Report – Official Account of 9/11 a "Joke" and a "Cover-up" Sep. 23, 2007 PDF Version Article on OpEdNews

That's a few of the 170 senior military/intelligence/governement challengers. Add them to the 660 architects and engineeers, 190 pilots/aviation professionals, 370 professors and 290 survivors/family members who challenge the government account.

How you can continue to believe the 911 Omission report is beyond me.

abraxas  posted on  2009-04-22   14:13:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Where are the remains of the AirTran plane that caught fire and crashed into the Everglades?

That happened on 9/11?

Wow....I was beginning to suspect you might be changing the subject, again.

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   14:17:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well Trollmeister you never cease to amuse. At this point between two or three threads you have managed to use virtually all of the Twenty Five Ways to Suppress The Truth: The Rules of Disinformation .

For any objective observer there can be little doubt that all you are doing is acting as a low paid, marginal IQ, government Trollbot. At no point have you added any substantive data which is not countered by multiple sources showing it to be false.

You cite "hunnerts of thousands" even gazillions of people who support the official lies and yet when it comes down to brass tacks you cite the same discredited sources over and over and over and over again. Of course mixed in with personal attacks and avoiding responding to any actual data presented.

You are engaging over and over and over and over again in disinformation tactics.

In your current post we have:

3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method which works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such 'arguable rumors'. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a 'wild rumor' from a 'bunch of kids on the Internet' which can have no basis in fact.

4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough 'jargon' and 'minutia' to illustrate you are 'one who knows', and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

Example: 'Nothing you say makes any sense. Your logic is idiotic. Your facts nonexistent. Better go back to the drawing board and try again.'

Proper response: 'You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. You evade the issues with your own form of nonsense while others, perhaps more intelligent than you pretend to be, have no trouble with the material. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 9 - play dumb)?'

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic which forbears any actual material fact.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

Not bad. You managed to include a total of 7 fallacies in one short paragraph. Way to go!

"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-04-22   14:23:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This was already posted to me today and on this thread and you Moonies wonder why I find you clueless...

war  posted on  2009-04-22   14:27:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You cite "hunnerts of thousands" even gazillions of people who support the official lies and yet when it comes down to brass tacks you cite the same discredited sources over and over and over and over again.

How has the ASCE been discredited?

war  posted on  2009-04-22   14:28:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Oops! Forgot to include you in the ping list.

"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-04-22   14:39:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Twenty Five Ways to Suppress The Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

And invoking authority is not proof. Data, valid observations, is proof. Slinging names around of organizations that are political in nature, and dependent on government good will for towing the Party Line, is not proof. It is an argument based only upon authority.

Check of Proof: Replace ASCE in your argument with the Donut Dunkers Society and it loses all of its weight. Therefore we can conclude it is an argument based only upon an Appeal To Misleading Authority.

"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-04-22   14:41:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Oops!!! You forgot to answer my question.

How has the ASCE been discredited?

war  posted on  2009-04-22   14:41:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You wrote: ... when it comes down to brass tacks you cite the same discredited sources over and over and over and over again.

WAR: How has the ASCE been discredited?

war  posted on  2009-04-22   14:42:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Not bad. You managed to include a total of 7 fallacies in one short paragraph. Way to go!

What's he trying to do is get as many of them as possible in one post.

: )

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   14:45:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I think he did set a record. Heretofore the most I've seen, saving BAC, is 3 or 4.

He's definitely well trained in disinformation tactics.

"I think the subject which will be of most importance politically is Mass Psychology...It's importance has been enormously increased by the growth of modern methods of propaganda...Although this science will be diligently studied, it will be rigidly confined to the governing class. The populace will not be allowed to know how its convictions were generated." Bertrand Russel, Eugenicist and Logician

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-04-22   14:48:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This was already posted to me today and on this thread and you Moonies wonder why I find you clueless...

It's obvious that you don't bother to read any information that contradicts your government consipiracy theory, no matter who posts or whom defies the government charade. You ignore what you cannot intellectually argue.

Clueless is continuing to cheerleader without offering any data beyond the Omission report to back up your claims. You prefer to digress to insults because you have no intellectual argument to substantiate your claims.

You learned well on LP to divert from the subject matter with insults, but that sort of lame diversion doesn't work so well at 4um.

abraxas  posted on  2009-04-22   14:54:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's obvious that you don't bother to read any information that contradicts your government consipiracy theory...

What is obvious is that you have your head up your ass and you can't understand twhy the flashlight you ahve in your hand isn't helping.

Helpful Hint: I commented on some specifics contained in what you accuse me of not reading.

war  posted on  2009-04-22   15:00:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

He's definitely well trained in disinformation tactics.

I agree.

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   15:00:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You wrote: ... when it comes down to brass tacks you cite the same discredited sources over and over and over and over again.

WAR: How has the ASCE been discredited?

war  posted on  2009-04-22   15:00:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

you have your head up your ass and you can't understand twhy the flashlight you ahve in your hand isn't helping.

Did you steal that line from Mad Dog or Yukon? Tactics are the same. Funny how you pretend to dispise such antics at LP while mimicking them around here.

When are you going to post the counter claims by chemists and physicists regarding the recent nano-thermite findings? First you claimed that a real chemist would debunk it. Then you watched a video of a real chemist in agreement. You claimed chemists would disagree but you have never provided a link or substantiated your elementary knowledge of chemistry used to refute the scientific paper.

abraxas  posted on  2009-04-22   15:10:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I agree.

SHOCKED!!!!

war  posted on  2009-04-22   15:10:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's obvious that war is playing a dishonest little game here. He asks people for a hard count of how many engineers and architects oppose the official 9/11 story (on another thread), is shown the answer twice on that thread, then claims that he never saw the information..

THEN he makes up a number, claims that there are that many who side with the government story, with ZERO proof of the number he fabricated and ZERO evidence that number of people would side with the government story.

And this surprises you? ahaha. That is what trolls and shills do.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2009-04-22   15:12:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

When are you going to post the counter claims by chemists and physicists regarding the recent nano-thermite findings?

These "findings" as I have pointed out are not recent. The chemicals that these people CLAIM = thermite have long been listed as chemicals in the WTC dust.

That said, it is hardly clear from where these people even GOT the dust. There is no clear chain of custody here. There is no specific location cited which could reveal contamination of the alleged dust that they analyzed.

I am all over this board citing experts...providing links and video...instead of coming on here and pretending one thing, why don't you do some research with the handy dandy search function provided here...

war  posted on  2009-04-22   15:14:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What's he trying to do is get as many of them as possible in one post.

Maybe he gets a bonus when he gets more than five or six in one post.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2009-04-22   15:17:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I think he did set a record. Heretofore the most I've seen, saving BAC, is 3 or 4.

KOOK! ROTFLOL! (There, thought you might be missing that). >(;^{]

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2009-04-22   15:18:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Maybe he gets a bonus when he gets more than five or six in one post.

That's right! He's on a bonus plan....

: )

litus  posted on  2009-04-22   15:22:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The chemicals that these people CLAIM = thermite have long been listed as chemicals in the WTC dust.

it is hardly clear from where these people even GOT the dust.

Verify this with a link to substantiate your claim. It it NOT in the Omission Report, nor is it in ANY of the NIST reports.

It is clear where they got the dust, it is clearly stated in the paper. Five samples were collected on sight, the one sample that could not be confirmed was excluded from the paper although the material found within the sample was IDENTICAL to the included samples.

Why don't you read the paper war? It's obvious you haven't read it while you continue to attempt to debunk it. READ IT.

Here is an additional analysis: Three Features of the Red-Gray Chips

A portion of Fig. 2, showing one of of the red-gray chips. ¼m means millionths of a meter. The length of the 100-¼m bar is therefore 1/10 of a millimeter -- about the width of a human hair. The three features of the red-gray chips highlighted here -- physical structure, chemical composition, and thermal behavior -- clearly establish that they are aluminothermic nano-composite pyrotechnics: advanced manufactured materials that may only have been invented as recently as the mid-1990s. Any one of these three features taken alone shows that the material is either a pyrotechnic or an advanced engineered material having no legitimate place in an office building. Any two of these features establishes that it is a high-tech pyrotechnic. That, combined with the material's abundance -- constituting perhaps 0.05 percent of the mass of the dust and therefore likely tens of tons within the buildings -- is clearly incompatable with prosaic sources, and fully consistent with the observations that the Towers were subjected to controlled demolitions.

1. Physical Structure The chips, whose structure is consistent from one sample to the next, are clearly an un-natural, manufactured material. The red layer is a nano-engineered composite, containing two types of nano- particles, each highly consistent in size and shape. The physical structure of the chips is revealed by microscopic visual inspection, most clearly using a scanning electron microscope. A thin red layer is supported by a gray layer of homogenous material. Zooming in on the red layer shows it to be composed of two different types of particles embedded in a porous matrix: thin plates typically hexagonal in shape, and faceted grains.

Three facts about the red layer are:

The particles are very small: the plates being only about 40 nanometers thick, and the grains are only about 100 nanometers in diameter. The particles are highly uniform in size and shape. The particles are intimately mixed in a highly consistent composition throughout the material. These are all features of a nano-engineered material. It is not possible that such a material was formed as a by-product of the destruction of the Twin Towers.

FURTHER READING: physical structure of the chips

2. Chemical Composition The red layers contain abundant aluminum, iron, and oxygen, where the iron is associated with oxygen, and the aluminum is mostly in a pure, elemental, form. The relative quantities of aluminum, iron, and oxygen match those of the most common thermite formulation: Fe2O3 + 2 Al . 2 Al + Fe2O3 [4; Al2O3 + 2 Fe

This is the chemical equation of the most common type of thermite reaction: Two atoms of aluminum react with a molecule of iron oxide to form a molecule of aluminum oxide and two atoms of iron. Because the aluminum holds the oxygen much more tightly than does the iron, the reaction releases a great deal of energy -- about three times as much per unit of weight as is released by conventional high explosives.

The chemical composition of the chips is established by measuring the levels of elements in the chips' constituent parts. Using a scanning electron microscope equipped with X-ray energy-dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), it is determined that each of the two types of particles in the red layer, as well as the porous material holding them, has a specific elemental composition.

Thus, the two types of nano-particles in the red layer contain the two ingredients of thermite: pure aluminum and iron oxide. Furthermore, the red- layer matrix in which the particles are embedded in a highly uniform manner is mostly silicon and oxygen -- similar in composition to known variants of nano- thermite optimized for high explosive pressure.

Although these elements -- aluminum, iron, oxygen, and silicon -- were all abundant in building materials used in the Twin Towers, it is not possible that such materials milled themselves into fine powder and assembled themselves into a chemically optimized aluminothermic composite as a by-product of the destruction of the Twin Towers.

FURTHER READING: chemical composition of the chips

3. Thermal Behavior When the chips are heated to about 430ºC, they undergo a runaway chemical reaction producing temperatures of at least 1535ºC -- the melting point of iron.

The residues produced by these reactions -- iron-rich spheres -- match those produced by igniting commercial thermite and particles found in WTC dust samples.

The thermal behavior of the chips is analyzed using an instrument (a DSC) that measures the flow of heat into and out of the sample as its temperature is gradually increased. When the samples are elevated to about 430ºC, they ignite in a run-away rection that reaches at least 1535ºC. The fact that the reaction reaches those very high temperatures is evident from the reaction's residue of minute solidified iron-rich sphereoids -- residues that had clearly experienced temperatures above the melting point of iron to create molten droplets that became spherical under the influence of surface tension.

The iron-rich spheroids formed by heating the chips in this manner match those found in abundance in all of the samples of WTC dust studied, and those produced by the reaction of commercial thermite, both in appearance and in chemical composition revealed by XEDS analysis.

A measure of a pyrotechnics' performance is its energy density: how much energy can be packed in a given weight or volume. Estimates of the energy densities of chips ignited in the DSC shows them to be similar to those of conventional high explosives and conventional thermite. These estimtes include the weight of the inert gray-layer material, which may account for the range of energy densities of the four different chips.

Whereas structural and chemical analysis of the chips shows that they were designed as some kind of pyrotechnic, thermal analysis shows that, despite their fragmented form and age, are still active pyrotechnics, and ones with impressive energy densities.

Active Thermitic Material Discovered does not describe tests that might indicate the discovered material's power density. The fact that it ignites somewhere between 370ºC and 430ºC would seem to make it a delicate explosive, since an office fire could generate such temperatures. However, the material might have more than one reaction mode: It might be designed so that the more gradual heating by a fire causes it to deflagrate and appear to burn like a hydrocarbon material; whereas the small spot of extreme temperture provided by a micro-detonator causes it to detonate with a shockwave powerful enough to shatter objects several feet away.

Although building rubble can contain flammable materials, it is not possible that legitimate materials in the Twin Towers or by-products formed by the buildings' destruction reacted to produce temperatures high enough to melt iron.

FURTHER READING: thermal behavior of the chips

Conclusion As this simplified summary of the findings of the paper Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe shows, the distinctive red-gray chips found consistently in dust samples from the destroyed Twin Towers are clearly an advanced engineered pyrotechnic material. It is not even remotely possible that the material could have been formed spontaneously through any random process such as the total destruction of the Twin Towers. Nor is it possible that the material was present in the Towers for some innocent reason.

The chips are clearly the unexploded remains of a pyrotechnic material -- likely a high explosive -- that was present in the Twin Towers in large quantities.

abraxas  posted on  2009-04-22   15:24:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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