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Title: Biblical Pool Uncovered in Jerusalem
Source:
LA Times
URL Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw ... 9aug09,1,1584700.story#Scene_1
Published: Aug 9, 2005
Author: Thomas H. Maugh II
Post Date: 2005-08-09 12:07:39 by BTP Holdings
Keywords: Uncovered, Jerusalem, Biblical
Views: 1119
Comments: 87
Biblical Pool Uncovered in Jerusalem The reservoir served as a gathering place for Jews making pilgrimages and is said in the Gospel of John to be the site where Jesus cured a blind man. By Thomas H. Maugh II, Times Staff Writer Workers repairing a sewage pipe in the Old City of Jerusalem have discovered the biblical Pool of Siloam, a freshwater reservoir that was a major gathering place for ancient Jews making religious pilgrimages to the city and the reputed site where Jesus cured a man blind from birth, according to the Gospel of John. The pool was fed by the now famous Hezekiah's Tunnel and is "a much grander affair" than archeologists previously believed, with three tiers of stone stairs allowing easy access to the water, said Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review, which reported the find Monday. "Scholars have said that there wasn't a Pool of Siloam and that John was using a religious conceit" to illustrate a point, said New Testament scholar James H. Charlesworth of the Princeton Theological Seminary. "Now we have found the Pool of Siloam … exactly where John said it was." A gospel that was thought to be "pure theology is now shown to be grounded in history," he said. Religious law required ancient Jews to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem at least once a year, said archeologist Ronny Reich of the University of Haifa, who excavated the pool. "Jesus was just another pilgrim coming to Jerusalem," he said. "It would be natural to find him there." The newly discovered pool is less than 200 yards from another Pool of Siloam, this one a reconstruction built between AD 400 and 460 by the Empress Eudocia of Byzantium, who oversaw the rebuilding of several biblical sites. The site of yet another Pool of Siloam, which predated the version reputedly visited by Jesus, is still unknown. That first pool was constructed in the 8th century BC by Judean King Hezekiah, who foresaw the likelihood that the Assyrians would lay siege to Jerusalem and knew a safe water supply would be required to survive the attack. He ordered workers to build a 1,750-foot-long tunnel under the ridge where the City of David was located. The tunnel connected Gihon Spring in the adjacent Kidron Valley to the side of Jerusalem less vulnerable to an attack. The first Pool of Siloam was the reservoir holding the water brought into the city. It was presumably destroyed in 586 BC when Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar razed the city. The pool of Jesus' time was built early in the 1st century BC and was destroyed by the future Roman Emperor Titus about AD 70. The pool was discovered by a repair team excavating a damaged sewer line last fall under the supervision of Eli Shukron of the Israel Antiquities Authority. As soon as Shukron saw two steps uncovered, he stopped the work and called in Reich, who was excavating at the Gihon Spring. When they saw the steps, Shukron said, "we were 100% sure it was the Siloam Pool." With winter approaching, the two men had to hurry their excavation so the sewer could be repaired before the rainy season. As they began digging they uncovered three groups of five stairs each separated by narrow landings. The pool was about 225 feet long, and they unearthed steps on three sides. They do not yet know how wide and how deep the pool was because they have not finished the excavation. The fourth side lies under a lush garden — filled with figs, pomegranates, cabbages and other fruits — behind a Greek Orthodox Church, and the team has not yet received permission to cut a trench through the garden. "We need to know how big it is," Charlesworth said. "This may be the most significant and largest miqveh [ritual bath] ever found." The excavators have been able to date the pool fairly precisely because of two fortunate occurrences that implanted unique artifacts in the pool area. When ancient workmen were plastering the steps before facing them with stones, they either accidentally or deliberately buried four coins in the plaster. All four are coins of Alexander Jannaeus, a Jewish king who ruled Jerusalem from 103 to 76 BC. That provides the earliest date at which the pool could have been constructed. Similarly, in the soil in one corner of the pool, they found about a dozen coins dating from the period of the First Jewish Revolt against Rome, which lasted from AD 66 to 70. That indicates the pool had begun to be filled in by that time. Because the pool sits at one of the lowest spots in Jerusalem, rains flowing down the valley deposited mud into it each winter. It was no longer being cleaned out, so the pool quickly filled with dirt and disappeared, Shanks said. The story of Jesus and the blind man, as told in John, is well known. Jesus was fleeing the Temple to escape either the priests or an angry crowd when he encountered the man. His disciples asked Jesus who had sinned, the man or his parents, to cause him to be born blind. Jesus said that neither had sinned, but that the man had been born blind so that God's work might be revealed in him. With that, he spat in the dust to make mud, which he rubbed in the man's eyes before telling him to wash it off in the Pool of Siloam. When the man did so, he was able to see.
Poster Comment: Holy water network Archaeologists uncovered an ancient water system outside Jerusalem. Two months of digging at Kibbutz Tzuba ended this week when the rock-hewn conduction network, dating to the time of King Hezekiah in the 8th century B.C.E., was unearthed. Last year the site received world-wide attention with the discovery of a cave said to have been used by John the Baptist and his followers for baptism. It was a monumental enterprise with a vertical shaft, an open horizontal corridor, a flight of stone steps above a tunnel and three external plastered pools, all of which was on a slope above an underground reservoir. Archaeologists say the new discoveries shed light on why this cave would have been chosen, out of the many thousands in the hills of Judah, for bathing rituals. “What baptizers wanted was a place, distant from nearby villages, large enough to contain groups of people coming to be immersed, and ancient enough so that the cultic side of the rituals was put into a context linking them to the time of the Israelite prophets,” said the dig’s leader, Shimon Gibson. http://jta.org/brknews.asp?id=153197
August 9, 2005
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#48. To: Flintlock, Red Jones (#46)
On this I beg to differ. To build a doctrine on one passage is very flawed and as Flint pointed out ..two or more witnesses.
Red Jones specifically said before it is accepted, be found more than once in the bible. You misread his statement. Further the passages about two or more witness are about people giving testimony. Whereas the bible states in 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;, or do you argue that some passages are not inspired by God, and if so, which ones please?
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Has anyone shown you Luke 9:27? But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God. Jesus himself seemed to believe the second coming was imminent, and mislead his students thusly.
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well, it doesn't really support the idea that there will be a day when a whole bunch of people will just disappear andt he others carry on. But it speaks how we will go somewhere else. so, it is weak in its support of the way the rapture proponents describe it.
No, I had already looked at that verse when I was figuring out what I could put here.
Where that is because you are believing that Jesus was speaking of something which He was NOT .. what He spoke of was not an earthly kingdom. He was speaking of His death and resurrection and the scripture says the kingdom is WITHIN you. He was speaking of the new covenant purchased with His blood.
IIRC Hey-sus said "before this generation shall pass" a whole bunch of times. Well, the generations passed.
Right. And the other scripture in Corinthians is taken out of the context of the sentence.. the rest of which reads and is speaking of the end when Jesus comes again and the end will come not the end of the age which was spoken of BEFORE His death.. which was of course speaking of the fullment of the old covenant, the new beginning so to speak, the New covenant: 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Well, I don't even care about this 'rapture' stuff. But I don't know why Flintlock attacks Starwind as he does. So, I was just trying to defend this 'rapture' as well as I could. But I am an end-timer type of guy as you have correctly perceived. And I do think that the end of this era will come, and that god will come down to earth and build his kingdom here on earth. You probably feel different, but that is OK with me. I certainly do appreciate your feedback regardless.
I was just browsing around the forum and this looks like one of those interesting religion threads. I'll have to start reading it from the beginning though. I just clicked on latest posts and saw this. These kinds of threads are slower reading than other threads because you have to stop every now and then to ponder on something you've just read a more than usual. It's also interesting to see how people interpret scriptures so differently.
It's already established that you believe in a fringe, minority doctrine. Are we going to talk about Muslims or not? I've asked you at least 4 other times and you haven't answered a simple question. Are Muslims devil worshipers, yes or no?
Where that is because you are believing that Jesus was speaking of something which He was NOT .. what He spoke of was not an earthly kingdom. He was speaking of His death and resurrection and the scripture says the kingdom is WITHIN you. He was speaking of the new covenant purchased with His blood. Huh? That's a stretch. He specified "some standing here" which means third parties assembled. "which shall not taste of death" this part means his death and resurrection? Not sure how you read that, but it has to mean physical human death of the assembled persons. The allegorical death sometimes referred to, ie. damnation wouldn't be conducive to seeing (read entering) the kingdom of God. Would it? "which shall not tase of death" shows no reference to himself. No indeed, he clearly meant what was plainly written. the kingdom is WITHIN you. Maybe, but there won't be much space in here for the angel chorus, the house with many rooms and 144,000 individuals. He was speaking of the new covenant purchased with His blood. Point out where, I think that's the interjection of someone eager to explain away his shortcomings. Like the cursing of a fig tree which wouldn't bear fruit out of season.
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On this issue we do disagree but we can 'reason together' without there being animosity and on that we do agree ;)
Okay let me attempt to explain without a huge drawn out post. I didnt mean he was speaking of himself when he said 'which shall taste of death' what I meant was He was referring to those he was speaking to THEY would live to see the kingdom come into being.. that kingdom which the scripture plainly says is within you, within those who are believers. Now the references you are making have nothing to do with an earthly kingdom. Those are allegory and in Revelation. Which has nothing to do with the kingdom. Not sure what you mean.. are you saying why did he do it? or?
Right it is a complex subject and it does take some pondering. Sometimes in an attempt to discuss although I try to be clear I fail LOL
lol - you're on a roll, don't stop now... just go ahead and tell me what I think.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Look, I'll go first. I don't believe Muslims worship satan. What do you think?
Ok, so now it's my turn to be told by you what I think.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Yeah, right You've already answered the question by avoiding it.
There see now! Ya didn't really need an answer from me anyway. You knew it all along without my saying anything. I've gotta hand it to ya Flintlock, you are good, really good.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Well, the generations passed. Yep. It makes sense in the context of a Hebrew eccentric attempting to garner a following by issuing hopes and threats. It makes no sense in the context of an educated 21st century world with ample scientific evidence showing that the biblical scribes frame of reference was laughably inaccurate. Do you think John knew the molecular structure of gold and precious gems is no more spectacular and elaborate than the molecular structure of pine wood? Yet he sees the kingdom of Heaven laden with, guess which? God knows the fundamentals of what he made, yet he has an eye for what is useless in an afterlife where there is no barter. Maybe it's the Oriental sensibilities he was patterned after. Or maybe he did it to please us, which is ass-backwards. I know, the flock here will say it's a metaphor. Bullfeathers.
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Those standing there at the time most certainly died physically, unless they, like several biblical players lives hundreds upon hundreds of years and are still alive now. Doubtful. So, grant that they have tasted death contrary to what Jesus promised them. If they were believers then they would never taste of death, eternal death the way you are interpreting it. Yet he said specifically "which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." So with this qualifier they (all assembled, believers included) at some point will taste of death, even the believers. That's messed up. Without fabricating a meaning that suits a believer, this clearly refers to physical mortal death.
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I guess I still wasnt clear. I agree he WAS talking about physical death to those who he was talking to, the third parties. What I am saying is this. He was telling those people that in their lifetimes and soon the kingdom of God would come to them when He, Jesus died and resurrected. The kingdom was not a futurist thing not an earthly kindom with someone sitting on a physical throne but rather it was a spiritual kingdom that would be within them as believers and all those that followed. I'm not trying to fabricate. I guess I wasnt clear enough unless you are presupposing I believe in a futuristic kingdom a physical one as the premilliennalists/furturists do.
Well, according to Luke 13:29 the Kingdom of God seems to be a physical place: "And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." Unless, I grant it may be a metaphorical sit down :) However, moving along to Luke 21:9: But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Okay, Zip. The kingdom of God won't be nigh until these things come to pass. Plain as day. Did these things come to pass in Jesus' time? famines, pestilences, wars? Yes they happen all the time. But the implication is they would be earth-shattering, unmistakable signs from heaven, the son of man coming in a cloud with great power and glory. Not leaving, mind you but coming. Returning. The second coming. Not sure how that can be interpreted any other way.
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Isn't it though? And which Bible written by whom does one believe is the infallible word of God and not that of someone(s) with their own political or some other agenda?
It's going to suck, just having bought a house, I guess I won't be on this planet long enough to really enjoy it. Guess I can go max out my credit cards and all that stuff too while I'm at it. Pastor John Hagee was going on about how in 2007, we'll see the return of Jesus Christ, and the rapture. Boy... If he's wrong, he's got some 'splainin' to do.
t is standard christian approach to insist that any idea in the bible, before it is accepted, be found more than once in the bible. To be mentioned only once is not important.
#49. To: Zipporah, Flintlock, Red Jones (#48)
On this I beg to differ. To build a doctrine on one passage is very flawed and as Flint pointed out ..two or more witnesses.
#50. To: Red Jones (#43)
There was a fellow who showed me several sets of verses that support it better than any of these.
#51. To: Zipporah (#45)
#52. To: Starwind (#47)
#53. To: Dude Lebowski (#50)
#54. To: Dude Lebowski (#50)
Jesus himself seemed to believe the second coming was imminent
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#55. To: Red Jones (#51)
#56. To: Zipporah (#55)
#57. To: Zipporah (#53)
#58. To: Starwind (#49)
or do you argue that some passages are not inspired by God, and if so, which ones please?
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#59. To: Zipporah (#53)
"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."
#60. To: Red Jones (#56)
And I do think that the end of this era will come, and that god will come down to earth and build his kingdom here on earth. You probably feel different, but that is OK with me. I certainly do appreciate your feedback regardless.
#61. To: Dude Lebowski (#59)
#62. To: Diana (#57)
#63. To: Flintlock (#58)
Are we going to talk about Muslims or not? I've asked you at least 4 other times and you haven't answered a simple question.
#64. To: Starwind (#63)
.. just go ahead and tell me what I think.
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#65. To: Flintlock (#64)
Look, I'll go first.
#66. To: Starwind (#65)
so now it's my turn to be told by you what I think.
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#67. To: Flintlock (#66)
You've already answered the question by avoiding it.
#68. To: Flintlock (#54)
IIRC Hey-sus said "before this generation shall pass" a whole bunch of times.
#69. To: Zipporah (#61)
He was referring to those he was speaking to THEY would live to see the kingdom come into being.. that kingdom which the scripture plainly says is within you, within those who are believers.
#70. To: Dude Lebowski (#69)
#71. To: Zipporah (#70)
He was telling those people that in their lifetimes and soon the kingdom of God would come to them when He, Jesus died and resurrected.
#72. To: Diana (#57)
It's also interesting to see how people interpret scriptures so differently.
#73. To: Dude Lebowski (#71)
 | So many morons, so few bullets. |
#74. To: christine, Diana (#72)
His boy Elroy....Jane, his wife.... Sorry. :)
We should thank the Nazis for giving us all those stark, frightening images. How else we gonna learn not to act like that? On the other hand, monkey see...
#75. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#73)
Guess I can go max out my credit cards and all that stuff too while I'm at it. Pastor John Hagee was going on about how in 2007, we'll see the return of Jesus Christ, and the rapture. Boy... If he's wrong, he's got some 'splainin' to do. Yeah, the things people believe. As far as fairy tales go, I much prefer the Grimm brothers to scripture.
It's going to suck, just having bought a house, I guess I won't be on this planet long enough to really enjoy it.
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#76. To: Zipporah (#71)
Not to beat this to death, but how does Luke 21:31 reconcile with your belief that the kingdom of God has already arrived when the glorious fanfare, afaik, hasn't taken place yet?
21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
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#77. To: Dude Lebowski, Zipporah (#76)
well, I was thinking about this after Zipporah's comments. I think there's scripture that says the kingdom of god resides within the people that believe. and that's what Zip is emphasizing. the idea is that the kingdom of god (and peace that passes all understanding) exists in the believers. and they realize that and benefit from it. But then the world itself is ruled by evil ones, and this kingdom only exists inside the private world of these believers. and then what I've been emphasizing is a time when god will change things, the world will no longer be dominated by the evil ones, the kingdom of god will be built here on earth, then the people will be separated, some will be in the kingdom and some will not.
#78. To: Dude Lebowski, Red Jones (#76)
Ive been working today and only here off and on so I've not had time to address this in full so rather than post a short reply which of course then you'd use an "I gotcha" I'll reply in full tomorrow.
#79. To: Red Jones (#77)
what I've been emphasizing is a time when god will change things, the world will no longer be dominated by the evil ones Right. And that comes from an innate human need for justice to be done. Some say it's karma; that is justice is routinely done here on earth (highly dubious). Others have developed this into a concept of heaven/hell since on Earth, just seems to apply itself at random. Then there are us pessimists who believe, just maybe, justice doesn't necessarily exist as law in existence. the kingdom of god will be built here on earth I pointed to a quote from Jesus saying this would happen during the physical lifetime of spectators assembled before him. It didn't. Or if you're Zipporah, it did, but the definition of "kingdom of God" changes from passage to passage. One verse it's a subjective concept, then it's a place where good people congregate, and in another it's is a glorious return of the Son of Man on a cloud with power. then the people will be separated, some will be in the kingdom and some will not. The scriptures from start to finish are composed almost entirely of despotic Asian ideas of glory and empire. Yahweh is a reflection of one ignorant tribes own characteristics, tastes, hatreds and idiosyncracies. Think of the perfect balance in the world; every molecule knows its place, every micron knows its function. Then think at the top of it all is a brooding, jealous, insecure, highly irritable sky-king who's partial to the smell of burnt cattle sacrifices on the altar (Lev 1:9), who incessantly craves the of worship of the human mind (which isn't all that glorious) and enjoys the destruction of his tribes enemies. Not only that, but when he made the world in 6 days, he forgot to relay (either through his secretary taking dictation or through his own word processor) that there were dinosaurs before man and dozens of other two legged bipeds fighting for survival and drawing blood millions of years before Adam and Eve would have had a chance to corrupt everything. You do the math.
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#80. To: Zipporah (#78)
Cool :)
Ive been working today and only here off and on so I've not had time to address this in full so rather than post a short reply which of course then you'd use an "I gotcha" I'll reply in full tomorrow.
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#81. To: Dude Lebowski (#79)
Oops. I meant "species of two legged bipeds..." I've never heard where the scientifically substantiated Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, Homo Erectus, etc play into the Genesis creation. Anybody? Bueller?
and dozens of other two legged bipeds
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#82. To: All (#78)
:)
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#83. To: Dude Lebowski (#71)
Okay verse 21 is referring to of course what was prophesized in Daniel now what many believe that this is some future event AFTER Jesus' 2nd coming. I do not take that position nor do many other Christians. Dispensationalists and futurists do but I do not. Jesus was foretelling of Israel's great tribulation of AD 67-70. The fall of Jerusalem and the Temple as Christ foretold in the following scriptures Matt 21:37-45, 23:33-38, Luke 21:20-22, Luke 19:40-44 and Mark 13:1-31. Jesus did not come to set up or begin any physical kingdom, he came to deal with man's spiritual problem. That is the satisfaction of the sin 'debt' and thus make peace with God for all men who accept that provision. The true kingdom is an eternal kingdom not that can be seen or touched as it is spiritual. In Daniel 2:44 when Daniel interpreted the King's dream he said: "In the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." It is eternal and cannot be inherited or passed on not like an earthly kingdom. And in Daniel 7:13-14: "I saw in the night visions, and behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven and came to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all people, nations and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Jesus explained to a puzzled Nicodemus who also was expecting an earthly kingdom in John 3: 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, `You must be born again.' And Jesus said to Nicodemus which sums up the confusion of those who believe that the kingdom of God is an earthy kingdom who are trying to understand spiritual things with earthly reason: vs 11: 1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you R134 do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? And in 1 Corinthians 2:13-14: 2:13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. .. It cannot be understood in human terms in other words as it's not physical but rather spiritual in nature. In Matthew 22 the Sadducees and the Pharisees plotted against Jesus for they too were looking for a king not one that would deal with their spiritual problems but they wanted a king a warrior so to speak but that was not his mission. Jesus plainly explained his mission and the nature of his kingdom to Pilate in John 18:36-37 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." 18:37Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." And to the Pharisees he said in Luke 17:20-21 17:20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 17:21 nor will they say, `Look, here it is!' or, `There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst." And in Paul explained: 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
#84. To: Zipporah (#83)
I'll read and digest that info shortly. Thanks Z.
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#85. To: Zipporah (#83)
What is mans spiritual problem that requires redemption? And if I understand, the heavenly kingdom is entirely spiritual while the everlasting torture which Jesus was partial to alluding to is physical in nature? 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them :) I'm sure this one was for me, but is the natural not inspired by the creator as much as the spiritual? The natural is science, factual, evolutionary. If infallible God wanted a spiritual kingdom, he could have created that in the first place without all the hassle.
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#86. To: Dude Lebowski (#85)
No it wasnt meant for you.. believe it or not! LOL Now I take it you are referring to hell? Now I can address that in full in another reply but for now I'll try to address the other for it may for certain confuse the issue.. What is man's spiritual problem that needs redemption? The separation from God due to sin. And God himself provided the 'escape' the redemption. The choice Jesus made by giving his life for the spiritual problem. Yes God did create the natural world .. and I see nothing in science that would be in opposition to creation. I cannot as no one can totally understand the mind of God so I cannot answer that question. As it says in I Cor. 13: 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
:) I'm sure this one was for me, but is the natural not inspired by the creator as much as the spiritual? The natural is science, factual, evolutionary. If infallible God wanted a spiritual kingdom, he could have created that in the first place without all the hassle.
#87. To: Zipporah (#86)
That's the part where we disagree. All living things have done what they needed to survive since time immemorial. Fact: nature was bloody and ruthless billions of years prior to man. But I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the Garden of Eden story for a minute here. Man was as morally innocent as animals until partaking of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Those who say the nature of mankind is sin often point to the free will the almighty endowed us with. But he didn't. We procured free will and would otherwise be ignorant animatrons. And if we were still as intellectually ignorant as the animals, how would Yahweh have received the altar sacrifices and human praise he so dearly craves? Does he exist because of morality or does morality exist because of him. For instance, we internally feel it is immoral to murder (neocons excepted) but to the God of the Jews it is immoral to distract from his glory. I don't feel the latter is a law of the natural world. Those laws needn't be written, spoken, praised or studied. Only followed. Hence the laws of the physical are painfully obvious to us all and the laws of the spiritual are unknowable to everything living, including the ethnocentric, scientifically ignorant priests of ancient days. JMO.
The separation from God due to sin.
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