Edom was an ancient kingdom that is mainly associated with Esau and his descendants in the Bible. Being descendants of Abraham, the Edomites were related to the Israelites. But they did not always act as brothers.
Located on the east side of the Arabah and extending down to the Dead Sea, Edom was first occupied by the Horites, who were later driven out by Esaus descendants (M. G. Easton, Eastons Bible Dictionary, New York: Harper & Brothers, 1893, entry for Edom). Numerous verses in the Bible equate the hill country of Seir with Edom, which would suggest that Seir and Edom comprise an entity that should be viewed as one and the same in terms of their respective geographical locations (Bruce Crew, Did Edoms Territories Extend West of Wadi Arabah? Bible and Spade 15:1, 2002, p. 4). Interestingly, the name Edom means red, which is easily linked with Esau, who sold his birthright for red stew and thereby earned the name Edom (Genesis 25:30). In spite of the connection with Esau, many scholars believe that the kingdom of Edom was associated with red before Esau took control of it because of the red cliffs located in its area (W. Ewing, Edom; Edomites, Bible Study Tools, 1915, www.biblestudytools.com/encyclopedias/isbe/edom-edomites.html, accessed 3-29-20). Bozrah and Petra (or Sela) were notable cities in Edom, with Bozrah being the capital and central city of the kingdom.
The nation of Edom existed before the Israelites left Egypt, and the Lord commanded the Israelites not to attempt to take the land from the Edomites as they passed through, since He had given the land to Esau (Deuteronomy 2:15). Moses and the Israelites asked permission to cross through the land of Edom on their journey out of Egypt, but they were refused passage by the Edomite king (Numbers 20:1421). From this point on in the Bible, Edom is mentioned as Israels enemy, and the two nations fought frequently.
Both Saul and David fought against the Edomites, with David conquering them and forcing them into labor (1 Samuel 14:4748; 2 Samuel 8:1314). During the reign of Jehoram, Edom rebelled against Judah and set up their own independent king (2 Kings 8:2022). The Edomites continued to be a problem for the Israelites and even raided Judah after it fell to the Babylonians (Ezekiel 25:1214). Because of Edoms sin in raiding Judah and taking delight in Israels fall during the Babylonian Captivity, the Lord pronounced judgment on Edom (Jeremiah 49:722). God declared that Edom would be a wasteland, occupied only by wild animals (Malachi 1:25). This began to come to pass when Edom was pushed out of their land and taken over by the Nabateans (Craig Blaising, Malachi, Bible Knowledge Commentary: Old Testament, ed. by J. Walvoord and R. Zuck, David C. Cook, 1983. p. 1,576). God justly dealt with the Edomites because of their actions and attitude toward Israel.
The book of Obadiah deals specifically with Edoms judgment. The Edomites were proud (Obadiah 1:3), violent (verse 10), and apathetic to the destruction of Israel (verse 11), and God promised a reckoning. After the Edomites were driven from their land by the Nabateans, they migrated to the southern part of Israel and became known as Idumeans. Much later in biblical history, Herod the Great, an Idumean, appears on the scene. It was Herod who tried to kill the infant Jesus in Bethlehem through Herod, the rebellion of Edom continued.
In AD 70, the Idumeans joined the Israelites in their revolt against Rome, and they were wiped out when Jerusalem was destroyed. At that point, the descendants of Esau disappeared from human history, just as God had said. Although once a mighty kingdom among the red cliffs of its land, Edom was destroyed for its sin. It is the restored Israel who will one day possess the land of Edom and the mountains of Esau in the millennial kingdom of Christ (Obadiah 1:1921).
#1: The_Rock To: fake watchman, esso (#0)
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 19:55:48 Reply Private Reply
#2: Esso To: The_Rock, 4um (#1)
Esso posted on 2024-10-26 19:59:07 Reply Private Reply
#3: watchman To: The_Rock (#1)
You have a hard time accepting reality don't you...
Rothschild means "Edom's Shield"
Meet the Edomites...they're back
And they disguised themselves as Jacob...to take another shot at killing Christ upon His return.
You hitched your wagon to the SOS...and now your pride won't let it go.
watchman posted on 2024-10-26 20:13:34 Reply Private Reply
#4: Dakmar To: Esso, The_Rock (#2)
I concur. Not without a six page essay on Beethoven's Erioca. Written in iambic pentameter. To impress a snobby countess I want to seduce.
Chop chop, Stone. How would further failure look on your record?
Dakmar posted on 2024-10-26 20:35:43 Reply Private Reply
#5: The_Rock To: watchman (#3)
A book cover doesn't prove anything except you are a satanist who is trying to fool people. That is why you don't condemn Hamas rapists and murderers.
Here is your chance. Condemn them. Then put up something besides a book cover. You have never made your point.
I'm listening if your senile old man brain can put up some facts.
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 20:43:45 Reply Private Reply
#6: The_Rock To: Esso (#2)
That is fiction. You obviously believe there are many paths. Jesus is the only way not some viking myth. Proving you don't know what you are talking about.
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 20:44:37 Reply Private Reply
#7: Esso To: The_Rock, 4um (#6)
OK.
Esso posted on 2024-10-26 20:49:48 Reply Private Reply
#8: The_Rock To: Esso (#7)
I would have given you more respect and known you were joking.
But on a serious note. You being the most neutral person towards me on this forum. Do you think that "watchman" has made his point that modern day Jews are Edom?
Honest answer please.
I mean all he has done is post a book cover and said something about red.
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 20:53:01 Reply Private Reply
#9: Dakmar To: The_Rock (#6)
As opposed to Heaven? Do you understand the idea of Faith? I think it is belief in something that cannot be proven. Are you with me so far? How is faith in Text A different than faith in Text B?
Would life experiences contribute to preference?
Dakmar posted on 2024-10-26 20:54:07 Reply Private Reply
#10: The_Rock To: Dakmar (#9)
The context of book a vs book b.
There has to be a reason for the faith.
I don't think viking orgies lead to heaven.
I saw the TV series Vikings and I actually liked it. Until they killed Ragnar Lothbrok.
You as someone else who doesn't constantly criticize everything I post. You are somewhat neutral.
Do you think watchman has made his point that modern day Jews are Edom? When history says they are gone. When all he has posted is a book cover and admonished me about the color red.
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 20:59:30 Reply Private Reply
#11: Dakmar To: The_Rock (#10)
But do viking funerals? Or is nothingness, the end of struggle, the best we can hope for in the cosmic game show? Anything else seems to me to be aspiring to be god-like, which strikes me as a power trip. But that's BIG question stuff. On smaller scale, just among us humans, the most productive should be in charge. Not Democrats and their captive dull-eyed lackeys!
Dakmar posted on 2024-10-26 21:07:22 Reply Private Reply
#12: watchman To: The_Rock (#5)
I see the book cover has captivated you and distracted you from seeing the Rothschild shield...
Here is a less distracting image...
watchman posted on 2024-10-26 21:08:21 Reply Private Reply
#13: watchman To: The_Rock (#5)
What I do think is that you believe yourself to be one of God's "chosen people".
You whole identity is based on this brainwashing you received from birth.
And now that's gone...
watchman posted on 2024-10-26 21:19:44 Reply Private Reply
#14: The_Rock To: watchman (#13)
So you are wrong again.
A shield doesn't prove anything either. It is what is on the book cover.
You have proved nothing.
Your "friends' didn't come do your defense and back you up. They don't want to hurt your little feelings.
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 21:30:42 Reply Private Reply
#15: The_Rock To: watchman (#12)
You have refuted nothing and offered nothing.
If this was a college debate you would be losing right now.
So far I have won unless you come up with something to counter what I have posted. Your little picture and proclamations doesn't cut it country bumpkin. Just because some nazi told you that when you were a kid and you believed it without documentation makes you very gullible and dumb.
bible.ca/archeology/bible...ogy-edomite-territory-mt- seir.htm Introduction:
Quick links in this document: a. Section I: Edom's territory and locating Kadesh Barnea during the Exodus: 1446 BC
b. Section II: Edom's participation in Babylonian Captivity of 605-587 BC
c. Section III: Historicity of Edom as a real nation just as the Bible says
d. Section IV: Chronology of Edom from Esau to Extinction: 2006 BC - AD 70
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 21:36:51 Reply Private Reply
#16: The_Rock To: watchman (#13)
bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple st*l*='word- wrap:break-word'>
The Edomites
Edom is Esau: Mt. Seir, Mt. Paran
Section I: Edom's territory and locating Kadesh Barnea during the Exodus: 1446 BC
Section II: Edom's participation in Babylonian Captivity of 605-587 BC
Section III: Historicity of Edom as a real nation just as the Bible says
Section IV: Chronology of Edom from Esau to Extinction: 2006 BC - AD 70
1950 BC: Esau conquers Horites at Seir and sets up administrative presence in Edom.
1926 BC: Esau moves to "Edom/Seir" with family
605 BC: Edom invades and occupies Judah Negev
587 BC: Edom burns Solomon's temple
550 BC: Edom displaced by Arabs Transjordan
Edom unlocks the key to dating Obadiah to 586 BC

Exodus period Nations in Canaan
The Amorites
The Moabites
The Edomites
Introduction:
a. Section I: Edom's territory and locating Kadesh Barnea during the Exodus: 1446 BC
b. Section II: Edom's participation in Babylonian Captivity of 605-587 BC
c. Section III: Historicity of Edom as a real nation just as the Bible says
d. Section IV: Chronology of Edom from Esau to Extinction: 2006 BC - AD 70
a. 1950 -1945 BC Esau conquers the Horites and sets up an administrative command center at Mt. Seir in Edom while leaving his family and flocks to graze in Canaan near Hebron.
b. 1929 BC: When Jacob returns Esau's "home base" is already in Mt Seir (Edom) but his family and flocks are still near Hebron: Genesis 33:14-16
c. 1929-1926 BC: After Isaac "the heir" had returned, it took Esau about three years to realize he had no future there and decide to move Transjordan.
d. 1926 BC: Esau moves EVERYTHING out of Canaan into Mt. Seir formally founding the nation of Edom: Genesis 36:6-8
a. The Edomites had their origin in 2006 BC at the birth of Esau. The Edomites were descended from Esau who is the brother of Jacob and son of Isaac. "Now these are the records of the generations of Esau (that is, Edom)." Genesis 36:1; "So Esau lived in the hill country of Seir; Esau is Edom." Genesis 36:8; "These are the chiefs of Edom (that is, Esau, the father of the Edomites), according to their habitations in the land of their possession." Genesis 36:43
b. In 1926 BC, Esau first moved to Seir (which became the land of Edom) before the return of Jacob from Laban.
c. When Esau moved to Seir, he killed off the Horites and took over the land. "The Horites formerly lived in Seir, but the sons of Esau dispossessed them and destroyed them from before them and settled in their place, just as Israel did to the land of their possession which the Lord gave to them.)" Deut 2:12.
d. Esau had continuous occupation of "Seir" from the time he first moved there in 1926 BC, down to the Exodus in 1446 BC: "just as He did for the sons of Esau, who live in Seir, when He destroyed the Horites from before them; they dispossessed them and settled in their place even to this day." Deuteronomy 2:22
a. Esau and Jacob were born in 2006 BC when Isaac was 60 years old.
b. Isaac blessed Esau and Jacob in 1950 BC.
c. Isaac died in 1886 BC age 180: Gen 35:28.
d. In 1950 BC After Jacob stole the blessing from Esau, Jacob flees from Esau to Laban for 21 years.
e. In 1929 BC Jacob returned from Laban: Upon returning Jacob met Esau at the crossing point of the Jabbok river. This is Transjordan. Interesting to note that at this time, Edom already was known to live in Seir: "Please let my lord pass on before his servant, and I will proceed at my leisure, according to the pace of the cattle that are before me and according to the pace of the children, until I come to my lord at Seir." Esau said, "Please let me leave with you some of the people who are with me." But he said, "What need is there? Let me find favor in the sight of my lord."
f. So Esau returned that day on his way to Seir." Genesis 33:14-16 Therefore Esau was already living in "Edom" in 1929 BC when the two brother's reunited after Jacob returned from Laban.
a. Those who reject that Edom was an organized nation before 605 BC, make a big point about finding no major cities. They insist that Edom was nomadic and living in tents, herding their flocks and use this as their proof. However, it has escaped their notice that Edom was living in tents and had few sedentary living areas. This does not diminish the reality that if you set foot on their turf, they would be a real force to be feared.
b. Kitchen has discussed this in relation with other ancient cultures like the Edomites. He describes them as "kings who lived in tents". He concludes that the lack of finding cities and other "material evidence" is "unreliable as negative evidence" to prove Edom did not exist at the same time. In other words, We know from "archeological lists" that both Mesopotamia and Edom were governed by kings. Yet apart from this we find no further evidence. Kitchen says it is invalid to reject Edom's nationhood on the basis of finding little archeological evidence during the period of 1950-1500 BC. The proof Kitchen uses that Edom was a kingdom is the list in the Bible. Kitchen points out that it is unfair for archeologists to reject Edom as a kingdom, since they accept the kingdoms of Mesopotamia with similar kinds of lists.
c. "In western Palestine, the Execration Texts also have not only urban centres but also tribal groups linked with them. This finds a direct counterpart in contemporary Old Babylonian Mesopotamia, where it seems clear that we now have lines of kings over tribal groups (or confederations) reigning in given areas contemporaneously with rulers of urban states there. Such also would have been the Assyrian King List's early 'kings who lived in tents', and not merely fictions (Yuhong and Dailey Early Edom and Moab: The Beginning of the Iron Age in Southern Jordan 1990). Clearly, if it were not for the attestations of such tribal kings in cuneiform documents with their urban counterparts, we would (archaeologically) know nothing of them. Thus, the relatively poor, even fugitive attestation of material evidence for the Middle and Late Bronze Ages in (later) Edom and Moab is equally unreliable as negative evidence, if (as is most probable) the rulers of Shutu and clan- chiefs of Kushu were agro-pastoralists and largely nomadic pastoralists respectively. ... The side-by-side existence of settled rulers and more tribal chiefs finds a societal echo in contemporary Old Babylonian Mesopotamia, where Amorite tribal 'kings' ruled in the same general areas also subject to the dynasts reigning in specific cities; documents bear oaths sworn in the joint names of such 'complementary' rulers, for example (Yuhong and Dalley 1990)." (Early Edom And Moab, Egyptian evidence on Ancient Jordan; K. A. Kitchen, Editor: Piotr Bienkowski, 1992 AD)
d. "This is entirely consistent with the pastoralists of Merenptah's time, and the raid on Seir by Ramesses III (an action repeating the claim of Ramesses II) may have been linked with Egyptian mining interests in Timna in both reigns, and the security of those interests. Clearly, Seir/Edom was not just a deserted wilderness in the Late Bronze/Iron Age transitional period there were enough people there to concern Egyptian official interests, and the lifestyle was (at least in part) pastoral and (with tents) at least semi- nomadic. The consequent scarcity of tangible physical remains in the archaeological record is, therefore, not surprising; cf. above on the tented tribal kings of the Old Babylonian period. Moab, and especially Edom, should be considered mainly as 'tented kingdoms', likewise, in at any rate the 13th to perhaps the 9th centuries BC, as a result." (Early Edom And Moab, Egyptian evidence on Ancient Jordan; K. A. Kitchen, Editor: Piotr Bienkowski, 1992 AD)
4 Wars of Edom during the years 900 795 BC
War
Name of Battle
Date
Text
1.
Battle of Moab I: Judah, Israel, Edom vs. Mesha
849 BC
2 Ki 3:4-27
2.
Battle of Edom: Judah attacks Edom
846 BC
2 Ki 8:21; 2 Chro 21:9
3.
Battle of Moab II: Mesha/Edom retakes Ataroth, Nebo, Jahaz from Israel
841 BC
Moabite Stele 2 Kings 10:32-33 1. Mesha Stele
4.
Battle of Damascus II: Adad-nirari III fully defeats Ben-Hadad III, Edom
796 BC
See outline on Adad- nirari III 1. Rimah Joash conquest stele 2. Saba'a conquest stele. 3. Omri Stele
5.
Battle of Kadesh Barnea: Amaziah defeats Edom
793 BC
2 Kings 14:7; 2 Chro 25:6-16
Section I: Edom's territory and locating Kadesh Barnea during the Exodus: 1446 BC
Quick links in this document:
Section II: Edom's participation in Babylonian Captivity of 605-587 BC
Section III: Historicity of Edom as a real nation just as the Bible says
Section IV: Chronology of Edom from Esau to Extinction: 2006 BC - AD 70
A. Transjordan territory of the Edomites
B. Edom and Moab denied Israel permission to cross their land:
C. God "dawned from Seir", from the north at Sinai
Section II: Edom's participation in Babylonian Captivity of 605-587 BC
Quick links in this document:
Section I: Edom's territory and locating Kadesh Barnea during the Exodus: 1446 BC
Section III: Historicity of Edom as a real nation just as the Bible says
Section IV: Chronology of Edom from Esau to Extinction: 2006 BC - AD 70
Edom burned Solomon's Temple: 2006 -550 BC
Section III: Historicity of Edom as a real nation just as the Bible says
Quick links in this document:
Section I: Edom's territory and locating Kadesh Barnea during the Exodus: 1446 BC
Section II: Edom's participation in Babylonian Captivity of 605-587 BC
Section IV: Chronology of Edom from Esau to Extinction: 2006 BC - AD 70
A. Edomite nation 1800 BC: "The archeologist debate"
"There are now three series of Egyptian 'Execration Texts' that list lands and rulers on both sides of the Jordan: the Mirgissa series (Koenig 1990:111-112) of c. 1870 BC (at very latest, c. 1840 BC)1, the Berlin series (Sethe 1926) coming closely after these with identical phraseology, of c. 1850 BC (at latest, c. 1840 BC), and then the Brussels series (Posener 1940), near the end of the 12th Dynasty c. 1800 BC (at latest, c. 1760 BC). From these texts, limited but valuable facts about Jordan in Middle Bronze Age II can be gleaned.2 Locations east of the Jordan can be viewed in three groups (Figure 3.1): SHUTU is a region named in a Beni Hasan tomb, the Mirgissa texts and the Berlin texts as an area (having three rulers in the Berlin texts), later specified as Upper and Lower Shutu in the Brussels texts. The identification of this name with Sheth of 'the Sons of Sheth' as an ancient synonym for Moab(ites) in Numbers 24:16 is widely accepted and fits wel1.3 We have a virtual succession of local rulers, thus: 1. Saripu(m) (Mirgissa), c. 1870 BC (Koenig 1990:111, F.4) Abisharru visiting Egypt c. 1863 BC (Year 6 of Sesostris II; Newberry 1893:p1.28) 2. Ayyabum ('Job'; Sethe 1926:46, e-4; Albright 1928:239; 1954:225- 227, 232:1), Koshar (cf. Kothar; Sethe 1926:46f., e-5; cf. Helck 1962:50), and Zabilunu ('Zebulon; Sethe 1926:47, e-6; Albright 1928:239; 1954:225-232; Helck 1962:50), being three contemporary rulers within Shutu, c. 1850 BC. 3. Shumu-abu (Posener 1940:89-90; Helck 1962:60) ruling Upper Shutu, and Yalanis-`ammu5 in Lower Shutu, c. 1800 BC. These rulers should be compared with `Ammi-inshi (or -nasi), ruler of 'Upper Retenu' in south Syria (north-west of Jordan) in the story of Sinuhe, ruling agricultural and pastoral territories within definite political boundaries with other polities.6 Some would claim (Rainey 1972:376 and n.38 [following Mazar]; Aharoni 1979:19, 143, 186, n.20) that Sinuhe's enclave within his area, 133 or 'Araru, coincides with the Araru of the later Amama Letters (EA 256), east of the Sea of Galilee and along the north side of the Yarmuk. 2. KUSHU occurs in the story of Sinuhe (c.1900 BC) and in the Brussels texts. In the former, Sinuhe summons the leader (? -hnty) Ya`ush from out of Kushu7 (Sinuhe B 220). The man's name is identical with the Ya`ush ('Jeush') of Gen. 36:5, 15 (are), 18, among the sons of Esau traditionally said to have decamped to Edom in the late patriarchal age (c. 17th century BC). In the Brussels texts (c. 1800 BC), it is of special interest that we find not 'rulers' (hew) but instead 'chiefs' (wrw) of clans (whywt) of (the territory) Kushu (Posener 1940:88-89, E 50-51)." (Early Edom And Moab, Egyptian evidence on Ancient Jordan; K. A. Kitchen, Editor: Piotr Bienkowski, 1992 AD)
B. "Hittitus" The minimalist archeologist disease: Edom a mythical Bible nation (not!)
"Hittitus": Rejecting the history of the Bible as false until man can confirm it with his own eyes
"Edomititus": Rejecting the Bible's statement that Edom was a sophisticated organized nation of domesticated shepherds at the time of the Exodus.
Learn more about this terrible disease.
1. Many archeologists suffer from a disease called, "Hittitus". The majority of archeologists are Bible trashers, namely they reject the Bible as an accurate historic and reliable record of history.
a. At the turn of the century, skeptics viewed the Bible as myth rather than real world history . For example, the Bible makes over 40 references to the great Hittite Empire.
b. You see, in the 1800's, no archaeological evidence had ever been found to prove it really did exist. "Just another Bible myth!" skeptics charged in an attempt to destroy our faith in the Bible.
c. This, however, cannot be said today, for in 1906, Hugo Winckler uncovered a library of 10,000 clay tablets. These ancient records fully documented the long lost Hittite Empire and confirmed the reliability of the Bible. Later excavations uncovered Boghazkoy, the capital city of this "mythical" empire. These discoveries not only authenticate Scripture, but also illuminate many aspects of biblical culture. Abraham's purchase of Ephron's field records the following: "So Ephron's field, which was in Machpelah, which faced Mamre, the field and cave which was in it, and all the trees which were in the field, that were within all the confines of its border, were deeded over to Abraham for a possession in the presence of the sons of Heth." (Genesis 23:17), This reflects the standard Hittite real estate procedure of counting the trees involved in any purchase or sale of land. Note also that the witnesses to Abraham's purchase were the "son's of Heth" -i.e. the Hittites.
d. Today, so many Bible cities, names and events have been unearthed through archaeology that the Bible is considered the single most important historical document in existence. Many lost cities have been located using the Bible as a road map. So startling and impressive are some of the finds that one archaeologist was compelled to say, "They are digging up Bible stories!" The shovel and spade have confirmed that the historical information of the Bible is both accurate and reliable. Skeptics once rejected the Bible's claim that the Hittite Empire existed until they saw the evidence with their own eyes.
e. Today, skeptics reject the Bible's claim that God himself exists or that the Bible is a divinely written book. Perhaps the only way they will believe in God is after they have seen him with their own eyes when they stand before Him in the judgment day. Only, then it will be too late!
f. Learn more about this terrible disease.
2. These Bible trashing archeologists debate among themselves whether Edom existed as a nation either in 1000 BC or not until 700 BC. This is absurd, since the Bible says Edom descended from Jacob in 1950 BC and immediately settled in their historic lands east of the Arabah valley between Petra and the Red Sea: "Now these are the records of the generations of Esau (that is, Edom)." Genesis 36:1; "So Esau lived in the hill country of Seir; Esau is Edom." Genesis 36:8
3. The Bible clearly identifies a succession of Kings of Edom starting with Esau: "Now these are the names of the chiefs descended from Esau, according to their families and their localities, by their names: chief Timna, chief Alvah, chief Jetheth, chief Oholibamah, chief Elah, chief Pinon, chief Kenaz, chief Teman, chief Mibzar, chief Magdiel, chief Iram. These are the chiefs of Edom (that is, Esau, the father of the Edomites), according to their habitations in the land of their possession." Genesis 36:40- 43
4. In spite of this clear, inspired by God information, that Esau lived in Mt. Seir from about 1950 BC, faithless archeologists have determined that the nation of Edom got its identity from a land area merely named Edom. They teach that first there was the Transjordan land area named Edom, but there were no Edomites. The land was just called Edom. Then, over time, nomads moved into this area and became known as the Edomites. The truth is, that Esau moved into a previously uninhabited area that was named Edom because of the people living there. For archeologists, the land came first, then the people were named after the land. For the Bible believer, Esau moved into this land, which was then named after him.
5. At the birth of Esau, he was stated to be a nation: "The Lord said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."" Genesis 25:23
The Bible
Bible trashing archeologists
Disease: Hittitus
At the very beginning of civilization, Cain was a farmer of grain and Abel was a herder of sheep. Esau and Jacob were herders and breeders of domesticated animals in 1950 BC.
Man had not evolved enough from the "blob in the sea", to understand about herding animals until about 1000 BC. Even in 1000 BC they were only hunters of wild animals and picked wild fruits and nut for food.
The Edomites got their name from Esau after he moved there and occupied the land. The land "Edom" was named after the descendants of Esau moved there.
The land was first called Edom, then a group uncivilized "hunter/gatherers" started roaming the land and they took the name "Edomites" from the land.
Edom was an organized nation headed by a king at the time of the exodus in 1446 BC.
Edom did not exist as a nation until about 700 BC.
C. Kitchen exposes and refutes Bible trashers who teach Edom and Moab were not a nation earlier than 1000 BC:
Section IV: Chronology of Edom from Esau to Extinction: 2006 BC - AD 70
Quick links in this document:
Section I: Edom's territory and locating Kadesh Barnea during the Exodus: 1446 BC
Section II: Edom's participation in Babylonian Captivity of 605-587 BC
Section III: Historicity of Edom as a real nation just as the Bible says
Edomite history: 2006 BC AD 70
Historical survey of Edom:
God foresaw the hatred between Edom and Israel in 1406 BC: "You shall not detest an Edomite, for he is your brother; you shall not detest an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land." (Deuteronomy 23:7)
2006 BC: Origin of Hostility between Edom and Israel:
1986 BC: At age 20, Esau sold his birthright to Jacob:
1966-1950 BC: At age 40, Esau marries four women and has 5 sons in Canaan.
1950 BC: Stolen blessing: Esau's grudge and desire to kill Jacob, Jacob flees to Laban for 21 years.
1950-1926 BC: 21 years: Genesis of Edom: 1950 - 1926 BC
&n bsp;
1929 BC: Jacob returns from Laban after 21 years to Hebron and fears Esau will still try to kill him.
1926 BC: Age 80, Esau moves EVERYTHING (flocks) to Seir
1900 BC: The Story of Sinuhe: 1900 BC: mentions Edomite chief Jeush of Gen 36:15-18
1800 BC: Egyptian sources for Moab and Edom:
1463-1446 BC: The conquest of Thutmoses III
1406 BC: The Edomites refused to let Moses and Israel to cross from Kadesh Barnea (Petra) through their Transjordan land (Modern Jordan) on route to Canaan.
1450 BC: King Saul defeats the Edomites: "Now when Saul had taken the kingdom over Israel, he fought against all his enemies on every side, against Moab, the sons of Ammon, Edom, the kings of Zobah, and the Philistines; and wherever he turned, he inflicted punishment." (1 Samuel 14:47)
1294-1279 BC: Edom at the time of Seti I
1279- 1213 BC: Edom at the time of Ramesses II:
1206 BC: Pharaoh Merenptah: "Edom":
1205 BC: Papyrus Anastasi VI 1205 BC says:
1184- 1153 BC: Edom at the time of Ramesses III:
1001 BC: King David defeats the Edomites
960 BC: King Solomon took control of the sea port of Ezion-geber from Edom:
950 BC: King Solomon loses control of Edom:
848-872 BC: King Jehoshaphat is in alliance with Edom at Ezion-geber.
848 BC: King Jehoram (Joram) of Israel (841-852 BC) and Jehoshaphat and Edom join forces to defeat Moab:
941-848 BC: After Jehoshaphat died, Edom rebels from the time of King Jehoram of Judah down to the time when Jeremiah wrote the book in 561 BC.
848 BC: Edoms appoints a formal king
796 BC: Adad- nirari III, king of Assyria defeats Ben Hadad III, king of Aram: 2 Kings 13:5
795 BC: Amaziah defeats Edom, but Edom continues in rebellion:
780 BC: Edom has recaptured their territory from Judah and Amos condemns them:
762 BC: Amos condemns Edom: Amos 1:1112
762 BC: Azariah fulfills the prophecy of Amos 1:11-12 and conquers Edom
733 BC: After Azariah died, Judah is forever driven from Elat by Syria (Rezin king of Aram)
732 BC: Israel, Syrians, Philistines and Edomites attack Jerusalem: 2 Kings 16:6; 2 Chronicles 28:5-20; Isaiah 7:1
721-705 BC: Sargon II collected tribute from Israel, Philistines and Edom:
732-701 BC: Edomite kings:
727 BC: Hezekiah conquers Gaza and Edom: Edom irrelevant in 723 BC
701 BC: Sennacherib (704681) "Siege of Jerusalem Oriental Institute Prism of Sennacherib the final edition of the Annals"
721-669 BC: Sargon II and Esarhaddon
673 BC: Esarhaddon (680-669 BC) "Prism A" collected tribute from Manasseh king of Judah and Qaushgabri king of Edom:
668-633 BC: Ashurbanipal (668-633) "Kings List Cylinder C from fragments"
"Baal, king of Tyre, Manasseh (Mi-in-si- e), king of Judah (Ia-ú-di), Qaushgabri, king of Edom, Musuri, king of Moab, Sil-Bel, king of Gaza, Mitinti, king of Ashkelon, Ikausu, king of Ekron, Milkiashapa, king of Byblos, Iakinlu, king of Arvad, Amminadbi, king of Beth-Ammon, Ahumilki, king of Ashdod, servants who belong to me, brought heavy gifts (tâmartu) to me and kissed my feet. I made these kings accompany my army over the landas well as (over) the sea-route with their armed forces and their ships (respectively). Quickly I advanced Tirhakah, king of Egypt (Muṣur)" (Ashurbanipal (668-633) "Kings List Cylinder C from fragments" M. Streck, op.cit., pp. 139 ff. Translation: Luckenbill, AR, ii, §876., i 2446)
668-633 BC: Ashurbanipal (668-633) "Kings List Cylinder C from fragments"
"In my ninth campaign, I called up my troops (and) marched directly against Uate, king of Arabia (Aribu) because he had broken the (agreements protected by) oaths (sworn to) me, did not remember that I had treated him with clemency; Upon the oracle-command of Ashur, and Ishtar I called up my army and defeated him in bloody battles, inflicted countless routs on him in Edom, in Beth-Ammon, in Moab, They set fire to the tents in which they live and burnt (them) down. Uate had misgivings4 and he fled, alone, to the country Nabate." (Ashurbanipal Campaign against the Arabs, From the Rassam Cylinder (cf. above). Translation: Luckenbill, AR, ii, §§817 831., col. vii 82x 5)
605-597: The invasion of the Edomites into Judah:
The Edomites move into the Judean Negev for the first time in history. During the time of the Exodus 1446 BC, Edom's territory ran beside Kadesh Barnea at Nabatean Petra from the gulf of Aqaba north to the Wadi Zered at the south end of the Salt Sea. After continuously occupying their historic Transjordan lands for 1321 years, they began to move west into the Judean Negev, for the first time, after Nebuchadnezzar's first attack on Jerusalem in 605 BC. By 597 BC the Edomite Threat became very serious when one of the four Negev Judean fortresses, Ramah-Negev, was about to be captured by the Edomites. This proves Kadesh Barnea cannot be at Qudeirat because the border of Edom in 1446 BC was 50 km east in modern Jordan. The Edomites attacks the Ramah-Negev fortress (Tel Ira) triggering king Zedekiah to write letters to the fortress commanders. Arad Ostraca #40 and #24 document a series of 5 different letters of correspondence between King Zedekiah of Judah and the fortress commanders at Arad and Kinah.
The story of the Edomite invasion of Judah as told by Ostraca #40 and 24:
1. Letter 1: Zedekiah issues orders to Malchijah, the troop commander at the Arad fortress, to send 50 troops from Arad and 50 troops from the nearby Kinah fortress, to the fortress at Ramah-Negev to secure its safety and defense. We do not have this letter but know is exists based upon Ostracon #40
2. Letter 2: Malchijah, the commander of Arad fortress, relays Zedekiahs instructions, by sending a messenger named Eshijah, to his son Gemariah, who is the commander of the Kinah fortress, with orders to send 50 troops to defend the Ramah-Negev fortress from the Edomites. Eshijah the messenger asks to read the letter he had brought, after but Gemariah refused to let him read the private correspondence between the two fortress commanders. We do not have this letter but know is exists based upon Ostracon #40
3. Letter 3: Arad Ostracon #40: Ostracon #40 is a reply to letter #2. Gemariah, the commander of the Kinah fortress, replies on Ostracon #40 to his father, Malchijah, the commander of the Arad fortress that he will not send reinforcement troops to Ramah-Negev in defense of the Edomite attack. Gemariah, therefore disobeyed both his father at Arad and King Zedekaih in Jerusalem. Ostaracon #40 reads, "No, we will not send any of our troops to Ramah-Negev as directed by the king." The reason was because moving the troops out of Kinah to nearby Ramah-Negev would seriously endanger the security of Kinah itself against the Edomites! There were simply not enough troops to secure both fortresses at Kinah AND Ramah-Negev. See: Arad Ostracon #40 Letter to Zedekiah: "We won't send troops" 597 BC
4. Letter 4: When Malchijah, the commander at Arad, got the message from his son, who was the commander at Kinah, he apparently agreed with the danger Kinah would face if Zedekiah's order to move troops was obeyed. Malchijah, the commander of Arad then wrote king Zedekiah informing him that neither Kinah or Arad would be sending troops to Ramah-Negev. We do not have this letter but know is exists based upon Ostracon #40 and Ostracon #24
5. Letter 5: Ostracon #24: Zedekiahs reply. send troops to the Ramah-Negev fortress or be executed! When King Zedekiah read Malchijah's defiant reply it angered King Zedekiah recorded his threatening response in a second order to send troops on Ostracon #24. The letter was sent to Eliashib, who was the kings executive agent at the Arad fortress. Arad ostraca #24 says, Send 50 soldiers from Arad and 100 from Kinah under the command of Malchijah from Arad, and deliver them to the command of Elisha, commander of the Ramah-Negev fortress that is under Edomite attack. See: Arad Ostracon #24 Letter from Zedekiah: "Send troops or be executed" 597 BC
6. Result: In the end, we know from archeology, that all four fortresses were lost to the Edomites by the time Nebuchadnezzar makes his third and final attack on Jerusalem in 587 BC when Solomon's temple is destroyed. The Edomites even assisted in destroying the city and looted even the Temple itself. During the final 587 BC Babylonian attack on Judah many Jews fled for their lives and were captured and killed by the Edomites at the crossroads near the Arad, Kinah, Ramah Negev and Moladah fortresses. "To Edom: Do not stand at the fork of the road To cut down their fugitives; And do not imprison their survivors In the day of their distress." (Obadiah 10-14) Edom was condemned by God for its role in the destruction of Judah, Jerusalem and Solomon's temple in 587 BC. Josephus tells us Edom (Idumeans) played a role in destroying Jerusalem in AD 70, but this time they were killed by the Romans and went extinct after AD 70. To Edom: Like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors, says the Lord, no one will live there, nor will a son of man reside in it." (Jeremiah 49:16-18)" (Steve Rudd, Near Eastern Archeological Society annual conference presentation, Providence, RI, Nov 2020 AD)
595 BC: An envoy of 5 kingdoms, including Edom, arrive in Jerusalem to join their forces and defend against Nebuchadnezzar. Jeremiah orders the kings to surrender to Nebuchadnezzar or be destroyed. Despite recently capturing Arad and other Negev cities from Zedekiah, the Edomites are welcomed into Jerusalem. However, like most of Zedekiahs political and military decisions, the Edomites will betray him and burn the Jerusalem temple down and help loot the city as possible allies of the Babylonians.
589 BC: Nebuchadnezzars third and final attack on Jerusalem begins with a warning to Edom:
After the destruction of Jerusalem in 587-586 BC: Condemnation for Edom for its role in the 587 BC destruction of Judah and Temple:
1. Edom condemned for their role in burning the temple a few months earlier. At this point Edom is occupying both their traditional mountains in modern Jordan and the Negev area around Arad. After the Babylonian captivity, they would be driven out of their ancient mountain homes to live in the Judean Negev. Thus the birth of the Idumeans as the ancient Edomites occurred shortly after 586 BC.
2. For I have sworn by Myself, declares the Lord, that Bozrah will become an object of horror, a reproach, a ruin and a curse; and all its cities will become perpetual ruins. As for the terror of you, The arrogance of your heart has deceived you, O you who live in the clefts of the rock, Who occupy the height of the hill. Though you make your nest as high as an eagles, I will bring you down from there, declares the Lord. Edom will become an object of horror; everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss at all its wounds. Like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors, says the Lord, no one will live there, nor will a son of man reside in it." (Jeremiah 49:13, 16-18: After Tishri 587 BC)
550 BC: BIRTH OF THE IDUMEUANS: Arabs drive out the Edomites from modern Jordan:
520 BC: The Edomites, called Idumeans, continue to occupy the Negev at the time the second temple begins construction:
1. "Then Darius I (522-485 BC) the king arose and kissed him, and wrote letters on his behalf to all the stewards, subordinate district magistrates, commanders, and governors to grant safe conduct to him and all those who were going up with him to rebuild Jerusalem. 48 He also wrote letters to all the subordinate magistrates in Coelesyria and Phoenicia, and especially to those in the Libanus, who were to transport cedar logs from the Libanus to Jerusalem and so help him rebuild the city. 49 He further issued letters of immunity for all the Jews who were going up from his kingdom to Judah to the effect that no official, governor, subordinate district magistrate, or steward should force his way into their doors; 50 that all the land which they were to occupy should be free from tribute for them, that the Edomites give up the villages which they took over from the Jews; 51 that twenty talents be given yearly for the reconstruction of the temple until it is finished; 52 that ten talents [be given] yearly toward the daily burnt offeringinasmuch as they are commanded to offer seventeen" (1 Esdras 3:14:63)
2. "So the king was pleased with what he had said, and arose and kissed him; and wrote to the toparchs, and governors, and enjoined them to conduct Zerubbabel [520 BC] and those that were going with him to build the temple. (60) He also sent letters to those rulers that were in Syria and Phoenicia to cut down and carry cedar trees from Lebanon to Jerusalem, and to assist him in building the city. He also wrote to them, that all the captives who should go to Judea should be free; (61) and he prohibited his deputies and governors to lay any kings taxes upon the Jews: he also permitted that they should have all the land which they could possess themselves of without tributes. He also enjoined the Idumeans and Samaritans, and the inhabitants of Celesyria, to restore those villages which they had taken from the Jews; and that, besides all this, fifty talents should be given them for the building of the temple. (62) He also permitted them to offer their appointed sacrifices, and that whatsoever the high priests and the priests wanted and those sacred garments wherein they used to worship God, should be made at his own charges; and that the musical instruments which the Levites used in singing hymns to God should be given them. (63) Moreover, he charged them, that portions of land should be given to those that guarded the city and the temple, as also a determinate sum of money every year for their maintenance: and withal he sent the vessels. And all that Cyrus intended to do before him relating to the restoration of Jerusalem, Darius also ordained should be done accordingly." (Josephus, Antiquities 11.58-63, Zerubbabel, 520 BC)
432 BC: Extinction predicted for Edom: Malachi 1:15
163 BC: The Edomites continue to live in the Judean Negev called the Idumea.
1. "The man Judas [Judas Maccabaeus, 163 BC] and his brothers, however, received great respect from all Israel and from all the gentiles who heard of their fame. Crowds gathered around them with joyful shouts of praise. Again Judas and his brothers set out on an expedition, warring against the descendants of Esau in the territory to the south. He attacked Hebron and its suburbs and destroyed its fortifications and burned its circuit of towers. Then Judas marched off to the land of the Philistines. (1 Maccabees 5:63-65, Judas Maccabaeus, 163 BC)
135-104 BC: High Priest John Hycranus I conquered, and force-converted the Edomites in the Idumea to be circumcised:
1. "Hyrcanus [High Priest, John Hycranus I, 135- 104 BC] took also Dora and Marissa, cities of Idumea, and subdued all the Idumeans; and permitted them to stay in that country, if they would circumcise their genitals, and make use of the laws of the Jews; (258) and they were so desirous of living in the country of their forefathers, that they submitted to the use of circumcision, and the rest of the Jewish ways of living; at which time therefore this befell them, that they were hereafter no other than Jews." (Antiquities 13.257258, High Priest, John Hycranus I, 135- 104 BC)
2. "However, at another time, when Antiochus was gone upon an expedition against the Medes, and so gave Hyrcanus [John Hycranus, 135-104 BC] an opportunity of being avenged upon him, he immediately made an attack upon the cities of Syria as thinking, what proved to be the case with them, that he should find them empty of good troops. (63) So he took Medaba and Samea, with the towns in their neighborhood, as also Shechem and Gerizzim; and besides these, [he subdued] the nation of the Cutheans, who dwelt round about that temple which was built in imitation of the temple at Jerusalem; he also took a great many other cities of Idumea, with Adoreon and Marissa. (64) He also proceeded as far as Samaria, where is now the city of Sebaste which was built by Herod the king, and encompassed it all round with a wall, and set his sons, Aristobulus and Antigonus, over the siege; who pushed it on so hard that a famine so far prevailed within the city, that they were forced to eat what never was esteemed food." (Josphus, Wars of the Jews 1.61-64, John Hycranus, 135-104 BC)
103-76 BC: During the brief period of Jewish independence from 110-63 BC, the Jews controlled the Idumea:
1. "But Alexander [Alexander Janneus, 103-76 BC] marched again to the city Dios, and took it, and then made an expedition against Essa, where was the best part of Zenos treasures, and there he encompassed the place with three walls; and when he had taken the city by fighting, he marched to Golan and Seleucia; (394) and when he had taken these cities, he, besides them, took that valley which is called The Valley of Antiochus, as also the fortress of Gamala. He also accused Demetrius, who was governor of those places, of many crimes, and turned him out; and after he had spent three years in this war, he returned to his own country; when the Jews joyfully received him upon this his good success. 4. (395) Now at this time the Jews were in possession of the following cities that had belonged to the Syrians, and Idumeans, and Phoenicians: At the seaside, Stratos Tower, Apollonia, Joppa, Jamnia, Ashdod, Gaza, Anthedon, Raphia, and Rhinocolura; (396) in the middle of the country, near to Idumea, Adora, and Marissa; near the country of Samaria, Mount Carmel, and Mount Tabor, Scythopolis, and Gadara; of the country of the Gaulonites, Seleucia, and Gabala; (397) in the country of Moab, Heshbon, and Medaba, Lemba, and Oronas, Gelithon, Zara, the valley of the Cilices, and Pella; which last they utterly destroyed, because its inhabitants would not bear to change their religious rites for those peculiar to the Jews. The Jews also possessed others of the principal cities of Syria, which had been destroyed. 5. (398) After this, king Alexander, although he fell into a distemper by hard drinking, and had a quartan ague which held him three years, yet would not leave off going out with his army, till he was quite spent with the labors he had undergone, and died in the bounds of Ragaba, a fortress beyond Jordan. (Josephus, Antiquities 13.393-398, Alexander Janneus, 103-76 BC)
AD 29: The Conversion of the Edomites to Christianity before Jesus chose the 12 apostles:
1. The Edomites living in the Idumea become the disciples of Jesus and were likely part of the New Testament church.
2. "Jesus withdrew to the sea with His disciples; and a great multitude from Galilee followed; and also from Judea, and from Jerusalem, and from Idumea, and beyond the Jordan, and the vicinity of Tyre and Sidon, a great number of people heard of all that He was doing and came to Him." (Mark 3:78)
AD 66-70: Edoms participation with the Rebel leaders in the First Jewish War:
1. Jan AD 68: VIOLENT DIVINE OMEN STORM: Ananus son of Ananus: Moderate, Former high priest, gives a speech to the people and says the Zealots must be defeated. (Josephus Wars 162-192) but the Zealots catch wind and attack first. The Zealots are routed and retreat back inside the temple. John of Gischala is asked by Ananus to negotiate with the Zealots but instead lies to them that Ananus is secretly planning on a new attack with the personal help of Vespasian. (Josephus Wars 4:208-223). The Zealots seek help of Idumeans living in the Judean Negev, and they agree and bring and army of 20,000 to Jerusalem. (Josephus Wars 4:224-235) Ananus locks them out of the city and they become enraged but camp over night outside and endure a violent lightening storm which the Josephus viewed as a bad omen. He records that the Jews inside the city viewed the event as God fighting against the army outside the wall. Here again we have Jerusalem surrounded by an army of 20,000! (Josephus Wars 4:235,283-287) The Idumeans cut through the city gate during the storm and kill 8500 inside the city during random looting. (Josephus Wars 4:305-314). The Idumeans and Zealots join forces and the two high priests, Ananus ben Ananus and Jesus ben Gamaliel are killed, (Josephus Wars 4:315,325) but the Idumeans learn they were lied to about Ananus being a traitor, they leave the city. (Josephus Wars 4:345-352) The departure of the Idumeans back to their homes in the southern Judean Negev (the Idumea) triggers a massive killing spree of the Zealots against anyone who opposes them. (Josephus Wars 4:354-365) All this internal strife was reported to Vespasian who decides to let the Jews kill themselves off a bit longer and he delays attacking the city. (Josephus Wars 4: 366-376) The irreligious of the city attack religion itself as the problem. (Josephus Wars 4:377-388). John of Gischala breaks off from the zealots to form his own rebel group. (Josephus Wars 4:389-397).
2. June AD 68: End of the Edomite homeland when Vespasian conquers the Idumea: He then destroyed that place, and the neighboring places, by fire, and fortified, at proper places, the strongholds all about Idumea (447) and when he had seized upon two villages, which were in the very midst of Idumea, Betaris, and Caphartobas, he slew above ten thousand of the people, (448) and carried into captivity above a thousand, and drove away the rest of the multitude, and placed no small part of his own forces in them, who overran and laid waste the whole mountainous country (Josephus Wars, Wars 4.446-448)
3. Late April AD 69: The Edomites betray John the zealot and loot the Jews: The Edomites who were living in Jerusalem may not have known that their homeland in the Judean Negev had been destroyed by Vespasian 10 months earlier, but the continue to be agents of destruction of Jerusalem. The Idumaeans abandon their alliance with John (Zealots) in Jerusalem try to kill him. The Idumaeans attack the Zealots, loot his supplies and drive the Zealots into the temple. (Josephus Wars 4.566-570)
4. May 1st AD 69: The Edomites support Simon to overthrow John: Simon ben Gioras invited inside the city and rules most of the city. High priest Matthias bands together the moderates of the city (other chief priests and the wealthy) with the Idumaeans and to proclaim Simon ben Gioras as the peoples savior and protector in an attempt to overthrow John of Giscala. (Josephus Wars 4.571-576). The people also made joyful acclamations to him, as their savior and their preserver; (576) but when he was come in with his army, he took care to secure his own authority, and looked upon those that invited him to be no less his enemies than those against whom the invitation was intended. And thus did Simon get possession of Jerusalem, in the third year of the war, in the month Xanthicus [Nisan-April 12th - May 12th]; whereupon John, with his multitude of zealots, as being both prohibited from coming out of the temple, and having lost their power in the city (Josephus Wars 4.575-577)
5. 6th August AD 70, Monday [10 Av AD 70] Temple destroyed: Fire was cast into the inner Temple, essentially completing the destruction of the city (Josephus Wars 6:244-264). So Titus retired into the tower of Antonia, and resolved to storm the temple the next day, early in the morning, with his whole army, and to encamp round about the holy house; but, as for that house, God had for certain long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages; it was the tenth day of the month Lous [Ab], upon which it was formerly burnt by the king of Babylon (Josephus Wars 6.249-250)
6. 14th August AD 70, Tuesday [18 Lous/Av]: Romans sacrifice to their pagan gods near the Jewish Temple: Josephus Wars 6:316-322. Titus executes the remaining Jewish priests. Contrary to popular myth, the Romans never set their pagan gods up in the temple before it burnt to the ground. Instead they came to the area beside the ruins to set up their pagan standards. And now the Romans, upon the flight of the seditious into the city, and upon the burning of the holy house itself, and of all the buildings round about it, brought their ensigns to the temple, and set them over against its eastern gate; and there did they offer sacrifices to them, and there did they make Titus imperator, with the greatest acclamations of joy. (317) And now all the soldiers had such vast quantities of the spoils which they had gotten by plunder, that in Syria a pound weight of gold was sold for half its former value. (Josephus Wars 6:315, Tuesday 14th August AD 70)
7. 21st August AD 70: Edomite fail in their attempt to abandon the city: It was at this time that the commanders of the Idumeans got together privately, and took counsel about surrendering up themselves to the Romans. Accordingly, they sent five men to Titus, and entreated him to give them his right hand for their security. (379) So Titus, thinking that the tyrants would yield, if the Idumeans, upon whom a great part of the war depended, were once withdrawn from them, after some reluctance and delay, complied with them, and gave them security for their lives, and sent the five men back; (380) but as these Idumeans were preparing to march out, Simon perceived it, and immediately slew the five men that had gone to Titus, and took their commanders, and put them in prison, of whom the most eminent was Jacob, the son of Sosas; (381) but as for the multitude of the Idumeans, who did not at all know what to do, now their commanders were taken from them, he had them watched, and secured the walls by a more numerous garrison. (Josephus Wars 6.378381)
8. 25th August AD 70: The Great speech of Titus to save the city but the Jews chose death rather than surrender: It was unwillingly that I brought my engines of war against your walls; I always prohibited my soldiers, when they were set upon your slaughter, from their severity against you. After every victory I persuaded you to peace, as though I had been myself conquered. (346) When I came near your temple I again departed from the laws of war, and exhorted you to spare your own sanctuary, and to preserve your holy house to yourselves. I allowed you a quiet exit out of it, and security for your preservations; nay, if you had a mind, I gave you leave to fight in another place. Yet have you still despised every one of my proposals, and have set fire to your holy house with your own hands. (347) And now, vile wretches, do you desire to treat with me by word of mouth? To what purpose is it that you would save such a holy house as this was, which is now destroyed? What preservation can you now desire after the destruction of your temple? (348) Yet do you stand still at this very time in your armor; nor can you bring yourselves so much as to pretend to be supplicants even in this your utmost extremity! O miserable creatures! What is it you depend on? (349) Are not your people dead? Is not your holy house gone? Is not your city in my power? And are not your own very lives in my hands? And do you still deem it a part of valor to die? (350) However, I will not imitate your madness. If you throw down your arms, and deliver up your bodies to me, I grant you your lives; and I will act like a mild master of a family; what cannot be healed shall be punished, and the rest I will preserve for my own use. To the offer of Titus the Jews made this reply:That they could not accept of it, because they had sworn never to do so. (Josephus Wars 6.345350)
9. 2nd September AD 70, Sunday [Gorpiaeus/Elul 8]: 1.1 million Jews died inside Jerusalem: Now the number of those that were carried captive during this whole war was collected to be 97,000; as was the number of those that perished during the whole siege 1,100,000 [eleven hundred thousand], (421) the greater part of whom were indeed of the same nation [with the citizens of Jerusalem], but not belonging to the city itself; for they were come up from all the country to the feast of unleavened bread, and were on a sudden shut up by an army, which, at the very first, occasioned so great a straightness among them that there came a pestilential destruction upon them, and soon afterward such a famine, as destroyed them more suddenly. (422) And that this city could contain so many people in it is manifest by that number of them which was taken under Cestius, who being desirous of informing Nero of the power of the city, who otherwise was disposed to contemn that nation, entreated the high priests, if the thing were possible, to take the number of their whole multitude. (423) So these high priests, upon the coming of their feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh, but so that a company not less than ten belong to every sacrifice (for it is not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves), and many of us are twenty in a company, (424) found the number of sacrifices was 256,500; (425) which, upon the allowance of no more than ten that feast together, amounts to 2,700,200 persons that were pure and holy; (426) for as to those that have the leprosy, or the gonorrhea, or women that have their monthly courses, or such as are otherwise polluted, it is not lawful for them to be partakers of this sacrifice (427); nor indeed for any foreigners either, who come hither to worship. (Josephus Wars 6.420-428)
AD 70: Final extinction of the Edomites: Edom goes extinct with the destruction of the Idumea homelands and execution of those who were inside Jerusalem:
1. Idumea did not fare well during the first Jewish revolt against Rome. Early on, the rebels in the area appointed their own commanders over Idumea (Jewish War 2.566). John of Gischala attempted to use Idumean troops to gain an advantage over other rebel factions during the revolt (Jewish War 4.224). Vespasian, while subjugating the uprising, stationed his army in Idumea and devastated itkilling, imprisoning, or expelling its inhabitants (Jewish War 4.44748). Simon Bar Gioras group also went into Idumea, plundered it, and forced some of its inhabitants to flee to Jerusalem (Jewish War 4.51137, 556, 557; 5.24849). During the siege of Jerusalem, the Idumeans sent five delegates to Titus to defect to the Roman side. Titus offered them protection from Roman forces, but Simon Bar Giora, discovering their actions, had the delegates either executed or imprisoned (Jewish War 6.37881). Idumea ceases to appear in contemporary records shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem. (LBD, Idumea)
2. Edom had played a central role in the two destructions of Jerusalem in 587 BC and AD 70. Edomite burned the Temple of Solomon. Josephus tells us Edom (Idumeans) played a role in destroying Jerusalem in AD 70, but this time they were killed by the Romans and went extinct after AD 70.
Conclusion:
a. Section I: Edom's territory and locating Kadesh Barnea during the Exodus: 1446 BC
b. Section II: Edom's participation in Babylonian Captivity of 605-587 BC
c. Section III: Historicity of Edom as a real nation just as the Bible says
d. Section IV: Chronology of Edom from Esau to Extinction: 2006 BC - AD 70
2. God foresaw the hatred between Edom and Israel in 1406 BC: "You shall not detest an Edomite, for he is your brother; you shall not detest an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land." (Deuteronomy 23:7)
Faith Lesson: Esau and Edom
Exodus period Nations in Canaan
The Amorites
The Moabites
The Edomites
By Steve Rudd: Contact the author for comments, input or corrections.
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The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 21:46:04 Reply Private Reply
#17: watchman To: The_Rock (#15)
It is enough...you're done
watchman posted on 2024-10-26 21:48:43 Reply Private Reply
#18: The_Rock To: watchman (#16)
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 21:48:51 Reply Private Reply
#19: The_Rock To: watchman (#17)
You are delusional old worn out man.
The historical record and the Bible disagree with you.
That is why everyone knows you are a fake watchman and a liar and a supporter of rape. And by your own words a baby killer.
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 21:50:30 Reply Private Reply
#20: The_Rock To: watchman (#17)
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 21:56:09 Reply Private Reply
#21: Dakmar To: The_Rock, Esso (#20)
Send me a check, Stone. Esso and I will hunt these fuckers down and package them to fit fridge in your efficiency apartment.
Dakmar posted on 2024-10-26 22:01:41 Reply Private Reply
#22: Dakmar To: watchman, The_Rock, Esso (#13)
That's where you are wrong, watchman. I can't speak for Esso, but I find making this stupid granite monkey turn tricks not amusing, but illuminating.
Dakmar posted on 2024-10-26 22:09:10 Reply Private Reply
#23: watchman To: Dakmar (#22)
Carry on.
watchman posted on 2024-10-26 22:12:31 Reply Private Reply
#24: Esso To: The_Rock, watchman, Dakmar, 4um (#19)
HOLY SHIT! I hope you're not implying The Watchman isn't going to be my babysitter anymore. Dr. Kimmy won't like that.
That lets a lot of pressure off a lot of people.
Esso posted on 2024-10-26 22:24:23 Reply Private Reply
#25: The_Rock To: watchman (#23)
You're losing in front a bunch of lurkers apparently.
If you were a serious guy you would want to prove me wrong. But you are not a serious guy.
You can't put up.
If you can I will look at what you post. As always I'm just looking for the truth.
The_Rock posted on 2024-10-26 22:27:00 Reply Private Reply
#26: Esso To: Dakmar, Sling Blade, Phinehas, noone2222, 4um (#22)
You're all bastards.
Kim
Esso posted on 2024-10-26 22:29:02 Reply Private Reply
#27: Dakmar To: Esso (#26)
Dakmar posted on 2024-10-26 22:34:09 Reply Private Reply
#28: Dakmar To: Esso, Kim, The_Rock (#26)
Reality is pretty much everywhere you look. Fuck the media!
Dakmar posted on 2024-10-26 22:36:03 Reply Private Reply
#29: watchman To: The_Rock (#25)
Oh, I'm done.
Squashed you like a bug.
Now, I'm off to beddy-bye for a good night's sleep.
watchman posted on 2024-10-26 22:49:18 Reply Private Reply
#30: Esso To: watchman (#29)
Aren't you supposed to be protecting me?
I'm afraid.
Esso posted on 2024-10-26 22:55:15 Reply Private Reply
#31: noone2222 To: The_Rock (#25)
Better get a telescope, bitch, because you're light years away from it.
noone2222 posted on 2024-10-27 06:39:17 Reply Private Reply