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Title: Help with a reference, please...
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Published: Oct 13, 2008
Author: moi
Post Date: 2008-10-13 10:31:51 by bluegrass
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Views: 447
Comments: 21
Once upon a time, a member of the board posted a historical/literary reference to Columbus and his men being "wolves tearing through the lambs" in regard to their treatment of the locals. Does this ring a bell with anyone?
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#1. To: christine, angle, Lady X, Cynicom, Tauzero, aristeides, wbales, Ridinshotgun, DeaconBenjamin, Horse, Ada, Ferret Mike, HOUNDDAWG, wadosy, nikki, farmfriend, *Hasbarfa Alert* (#0)
See above.
Bell ringing... Very faint, but do seem to recall some such.
I've read a ton of essays and articles about the horrific treatment doled out to the natives by Columbus and his croneys, as well as by many of the latecomers, but I don't remember that particular reference.
Sorry can't help you there. I bumped into a post about Columbus and mates being Templars (which is all over my head). Here's the link and perhaps it's linked to further pieces that may help you track down your answer. www.rumormillnews.com/cgi....cgi?noframes;read=133674 Quick search returned this: bible.cc/acts/20-29.htm And this: www.patriarchywebsite.com...riarchy/wolves-way-of.htm Still no Columbus x-ref tho.
That proves Columbus was a Jew beyond a doubt.
It was a specific quote. I'm plowing through some old threads. I'll find it before Columbus Day is out. : )
Thanks. Brutal's a good word for it. They got their inspiration from the Old Testament.
No. Interesting to note that in the Navigator's First voyage he had three Caravalles with about seventy sailors, the second voyage seventeen Caravelles with 1700 sailors. Also many Irish wolfhounds, neck and leg irons and plenty of weapons. His second voyage was in fact an invasion. There is no evidence that they were aware of the disease factors they were a vector of however. From a modern perspective, their actions are nothing short of barbaric. And ultimately highly counter productive to their own self interests. Not to mention the indigenous interests. On balance, an informed perspective must put the Spanish actions in the new world as disastrous for both Spain and the Americas. In Mexico today there is no public statue of Cortez, and Diego Rivera's wall murals at the National Palace, he is represented as a deformed monster. Appears to reflect the national sentiment towards Spain.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" Thanks a lot tom... You have shattered everything I was taught re Columbus for 12 long years. You think maybe they lied to me bout Lincoln and other "great" men????
Found it. If B'nai B'rith is correct about Columbus's "heritage", it says much about we already know about the culture that shall dwell alone. In the ship's log and in his diary Columbus made the following observation concerning the Taino: "They are a very loving people and without covetousness,"…"They are adaptable for every purpose, and I declare to your Highnesses that there is not a better country nor a better people in the world than these."…They are so ingenious and free with all they have that no one would believe it who has not seen it; of anything they possess, if it be asked of them, they never say no; on the contrary they invite you to share it and show as much love as if their hearts went with it…" Father Bartolomé de Las Casas, who wrote extensively about the Taino culture and their interaction with the Spanish invaders, sailed to the West Indies with Christopher Columbus on his second voyage. The Spanish fleet also carried more than 1500 adventurers, former prisoners and ex soldiers with battle experience in the wars against the Moors of North Africa. Father Las Casas wrote: “...God made all the peoples of this area...open and as innocent as can be imagined. The simplest people in the world, unassuming, long-suffering, unassertive, and submissive. They are without malice or guile...Never quarrelsome or belligerent or boisterous, they harbor no grudges and do not seek to settle old scores; indeed, the notions of revenge, rancor, and hatred are quite foreign to them...They own next to nothing and have no urge to acquire material possessions. As a result they are neither ambitious nor greedy, and are totally uninterested in worldly power...They are innocent and pure in mind and have a lively intelligence… “It was upon these gentle lambs, imbued by the Creator with all the qualities we have mentioned, that from the very first day they clapped eyes on them the Spanish fell like ravening wolves upon the fold...The pattern established at the outset has remained unchanged to this day, and the Spaniards still do nothing save tear the natives to shreds, murder them and inflict upon them untold misery, suffering and distress, tormenting, harrying and persecuting them mercilessly. “They forced their way into native settlements, slaughtering everyone they found there, including small children, old men, pregnant women, and even women who had just given birth. They hacked them to pieces, slicing open their bellies with their swords as though they were so many sheep herded into a pen. They even laid wagers on whether they could manage to slice a man in two at a stroke, or cut an individual's head from his body, or disembowel him with a single blow of their axes. They grabbed suckling infants by the feet and, ripping them from their mothers' breasts, dashed them headlong against the rocks. Others, laughing and joking all the while, threw them over their shoulders into a river, shouting: 'Wriggle, you little perisher.' “They spared no one, erecting especially wide gibbets on which they could string their victims up with their feet just off the ground and then burn them alive thirteen at a time, in honor of our Savior and the twelve Apostles, or tie dry straw to their bodies and set fire to it...The way they normally dealt with the native leaders and nobles was to tie them to a kind of griddle consisting of sticks resting on pitchforks driven into the ground and then grill them over a slow fire, with the result that they howled in agony and despair as they died a lingering death. “It once happened that I myself witnessed their grilling of four or five local leaders in this fashion (and I believe they had set up two or three other pairs of grills alongside so that they might process other victims at the same time) when the poor creatures 'howls came between the Spanish commander and his sleep. He gave orders that the prisoners were to be throttled, but the man in charge of execution detail, who was more bloodthirsty than the average common hangman (I know his identity and even met some relatives of his in Seville), was loath to cut short his private entertainment by throttling them and so he personally went round ramming wooden buns into their mouths to stop them making such a racket and deliberately stoked the fire that they would take just as long to die as he himself chose. I saw these things for myself and many others besides. “...It is reported that the butcher-in-chief arranged for a large number of natives in the area and, in particular, one group of over two hundred who had either come form a neighboring town in response to a summons or had gathered of their own free will, to have their noses, lips and chins sliced from their faces; they were sent away, in unspeakable agony and all running with blood...”
Oops. Forgot ya.
You are living up to your name. )
"Satan / Cheney in "08" As I've mentioned before, I've learned more in a few years on the internet than I did in twenty years at public schools.
That makes two of us.
He that writes the class room history books, is also head of the propaganda dept.
Jeez you're fast. "Father Las Casas wrote: “...God made all the peoples of this area...open and as innocent as can be imagined." Of everything that's been lost over the centuries, that's the absolute worst part of it all.
The Taino's political system was hierarchical, in which the islands were broken up into groups, each island in turn was divided into provinces ruled by chiefs known as caciques. The provinces were allocated into districts ruled by a sub-chief and each village was ruled by a head-man. Their socio-political rivals within the Caribbean were the Caribs and the Ciboneys. The Caribs were considered aggressive, while the Ciboneys were considered docile. The Taino used the Ciboney for slave labor. The Taino treated the peaceful Ciboney as a subjected people, having already pushed them to the very most fringes of their territory. The Carib were attempting to expand their territory in the Lesser Antilles, which entailed the ethnic cleansing of the Ciboney and Taino people, as the Caribs were known to torture and kill all non-Carib males, taking the females as slave-wives... Multicultural Confusion of the Historical Record The Caribs were warlike long before the Europeans got there. The modern multicultural interpretation is that "European colonists arriving on the Caribbean Islands in the 15th century brutally fought for land and resources which induced the Caribs' aggressive and warlike ways and apparent taste for combat." In fact, the Tainos and the Caribs were fighting long before the Europeans arrived: About 100 years before the Spanish invasion, the Taínos were challenged by an invading South American tribe - the Caribs . Fierce, warlike, sadistic, and adept at using poison-tipped arrows, they raided Taíno settlements for slaves (especially females) and bodies for the completion of their rites of cannibalism. Some ethnologists argue that the preeminence of the Taínos, shaken by the attacks of the Caribs, was already jeopardized by the time of the Spanish occupation. In fact, it was Caribs who fought the most effectively against the Europeans, their behavior probably led the Europeans to unfairly attribute warlike tendencies to all of the island's tribes. A dynamic tension between the Taínos and the Caribs certainly existed when the Christopher Columbus landed on Puerto Rico. [1] Due to native Caribs' lack of sophisticated weapons, they were defeated by the Europeans. Multiculturalists often claim that "Carib culture, looked at from the outside, seems to be heavily patriarchal. Women carried out primarily domestic duties and farming, and in the 17th century lived in separate houses (a custom which also suggests South American origin). However, women were highly revered and held much power. Island Carib society was socially more egalitarian than Taíno society. Although there were village chiefs and war leaders, there were no large states or multi-tiered aristocracy." Instances of cannibalism were noted as a feature of religious war rituals, and in fact, the English word cannibal originated from the Carib word karibna ('person') – as recorded by Columbus as a name for the Caribs. But claims of cannibalism must be seen in light of the fact that in 1503, Queen Isabella ruled that only people who are better off under slavery (including cannibals) could be legally taken as slaves, which gave Spaniards an incentive to identify various Amerindian groups as cannibals... Survivors Most scholars believe that of the Island populations of Ciboney, Taino and Carib, only the Carib survive today. On the mainland of South America there are some 2,450 (1980 census) Arawaks living in Venezuela, Guyana, Suriname, and French Guyana with 2,051 in Suriname. The Caribs on mainland South America number 10,225 (2000 WCD) in Venezuela, Guyana, Suriname, and French Guyana. The majority of the populations of Puerto Rico and Aruba are descended in part from the Arawaks — Taino in the case of the former. ...Both methods yielded similar results, which support the previous findings; that is, of all modern human samples, sub-Saharan Africans again exhibit the closest phenetic similarity to various African Plio-Pleistocene hominins... Marking this post. Thanks Blue.
Same here. Much more. Life was a dream then. Doo-wah doo-wah. Now, it's reality. Doo-doo, doo-doo. ;)
It strikes me that civilization has killed more people than savagery has.
#2. To: bluegrass (#1)
#3. To: bluegrass (#0)
#4. To: bluegrass (#0)
Here's a brutal account -
#5. To: bluegrass (#0)
#6. To: lodwick, bluegrass (#4)
The information that Columbus wanted most was: Where is the gold?
#7. To: RidinShotgun (#3)
#8. To: lodwick (#4)
#9. To: bluegrass, ferret mike (#0)
#10. To: tom007 (#9)
From a modern perspective, their actions are nothing short of barbaric.
#11. To: christine, angle, Lady X, Cynicom, Tauzero, aristeides, wbales, Ridinshotgun, DeaconBenjamin, Horse, Ada, Ferret Mike, HOUNDDAWG, wadosy, nikki, farmfriend, *Hasbarfa Alert* (#1)
#12. To: tom007 (#9)
#13. To: Cynicom (#10)
You think maybe they lied to me bout Lincoln and other "great" men????
#14. To: bluegrass, Cynicom, nikki, all (#8)
#15. To: lodwick (#14)
#16. To: lodwick (#14)
I've learned more in a few years on the internet than I did in twenty years at public schools.
#17. To: bluegrass (#11)
I'll find it before Columbus Day is out. : )
#18. To: bluegrass (#11)
The Taino had organized systems of religion and government. They believed in good and evil spirits, which could inhabit human bodies and natural objects. They sought to control these spirits through their priests or shamans.
Ancient teeth and modern human origins: An expanded comparison of African Plio-Pleistocene and recent world dental samples, Journal of Human Evolution Volume 45, Issue 2, August 2003, Pages 113-144
#19. To: bluegrass (#11)
#20. To: lodwick (#14)
I've learned more in a few years on the internet than I did in twenty years at public schools.
#21. To: Tauzero (#18)
Due to native Caribs' lack of sophisticated weapons, they were defeated by the Europeans.
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