Freedom4um - Article

#1: Esso To: Pinguinite, Straitgate, 4um (#0)

Speaking of turbines...

Esso posted on 2023-02-01 18:21:20 Reply Private Reply

#2: Pinguinite To: Esso (#1)

I saw a clip like this before, maybe even this one. Interesting and perhaps sad. Seems like if enough engineering was put into turbines they could have become a mainstay and even beat out pistons. Reminds me of VHS vs Beta. Beta was better quality but VHS beat them out simply due to marketing or what not. Goes to show that the best product doesn't always win.

Pinguinite posted on 2023-02-01 20:23:39 Reply Private Reply

#3: Dakmar To: Pinguinite, Esso (#2)

The problem with the Chrysler Turbine was that it was direct drive, the main turbine shaft was mechanically geared to the driveshaft, like a conventional ICE. That resulted in horrible fuel efficiency, about 10mpg, and they weren't especially fast.

A turbine powered car was run in Indy500 in 1968, it ran the race without refueling but crashed 8 miles shy of the requisite 500. Turbines are only efficient running at very high rpm, they have a sweet spot.

Union Pacific had some turbine electric locomotives in the 50's, they were great for long distance high speed runs, but were very costly to maintain, something I think could have been overcome by bringing in some more experienced jet engine experts. If I recall, they just sort of slapped some leftover WWII crap together, typical of GE.

I think a hybrid using very small turbine to spin an alternator(/or DC generator, whatever), would be ideal.

Dakmar posted on 2023-02-01 20:45:34 Reply Private Reply

#4: StraitGate To: Dakmar (#3)

Jaguar has a hybrid-electric concept car, the C-X75, that uses two diesel-fed micro gas turbines:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_C-X75

StraitGate posted on 2023-02-01 21:41:25 Reply Private Reply

#5: Esso To: Dakmar, 4um (#3)

Esso posted on 2023-02-01 21:51:37 Reply Private Reply

#6: StraitGate To: Dakmar (#3)

Indy 500?

This car was on display in the lobby sometimes where I used to work.

I knew the guy who fixed it after a careless forklift driver ran the forks through its side trying to move it.

StraitGate posted on 2023-02-01 21:58:56 Reply Private Reply

#7: Dakmar To: StraitGate (#4)

Cool! That's pretty much what I was thinking...use each type of engine where it is most efficient. There is limited space in an automobile, of course, but given the right application, I think even something like a hit-and-miss could have a role, like supplementing wind turbines, which by their very nature are not going to run at constant speed.

Put a big flywheel on the hit-and-miss, and a few magnets, surround with a field coil just to keep it spinning, and some sort of governor to kick in a fuel charge as needed...

Ok, maybe hit-and-miss not the best example, but you get the idea :)

Dakmar posted on 2023-02-01 22:03:41 Reply Private Reply

#8: Dakmar To: StraitGate (#6)

STP-Paxton Turbocar

Jones qualified the car at Indianapolis in sixth place at 166.075 mph (267.272 km/h). At the start of the race, he quickly took the lead and rarely relinquished it. However, with just 8 miles (13 km) left to go, he coasted into the pits with a transmission bearing failure.

...

The engine drove a Ferguson four-wheel drive system, which transmitted the power to the wheels. A torque converter eliminated the need for a clutch pedal and gearshift. The engine idled at 54% of full throttle, which meant that the driver didn't even have to press the accelerator pedal to pull away; all he had to do was ease his foot off the brake pedal.

Dakmar posted on 2023-02-01 22:12:19 Reply Private Reply

#9: Esso To: Dakmar (#8)

1968 Lotus turbine

1967 STP Paxton

Esso posted on 2023-02-01 22:17:17 Reply Private Reply

#10: Esso To: All (#9)

Looks like a doorstop.

Esso posted on 2023-02-01 22:19:16 Reply Private Reply

#11: Dakmar To: Esso (#9)

I always wondered if the gyro effect from the turbine affected handling. It seems like there would be a lot more rotating mass than an ICE would have.

Dakmar posted on 2023-02-01 22:19:36 Reply Private Reply

#12: Dakmar To: Esso (#10)

Looks like a doorstop.

Triumph TR7 prototype! :)

Dakmar posted on 2023-02-01 22:20:32 Reply Private Reply

#13: StraitGate To: Dakmar (#8)

transmission bearing failure

Allison transmission?

StraitGate posted on 2023-02-01 22:21:10 Reply Private Reply

#14: StraitGate To: Dakmar, Esso (#12)

My neighbor, a carpenter, uses thingies that look like that when he's hanging a door.

StraitGate posted on 2023-02-01 22:25:11 Reply Private Reply

#15: Dakmar To: StraitGate (#13)

Allison transmission?

I am going to guess Chrysler, since they did the powertrain for the Jensen FF (Fergeson Formula) and had the experience with turbines, but I could be way off.

Dakmar posted on 2023-02-01 22:26:13 Reply Private Reply

#16: StraitGate To: Dakmar (#15)

Chrysler. Makes sense. Probably the same transmission they put in my wife's minivan.

StraitGate posted on 2023-02-01 22:33:26 Reply Private Reply

#17: Dakmar To: StraitGate (#16)

LOL...nope. 727 Torqueflight.

Dakmar posted on 2023-02-01 22:34:58 Reply Private Reply

#18: Dakmar To: StraitGate (#16)

Although I did hear a story once about Chrysler offering to buy out Mattel,but Mattel's board of directors refused the offer, citing their concerns about maintaining quality control.

Dakmar posted on 2023-02-01 22:38:23 Reply Private Reply

#19: StraitGate To: Dakmar (#18)

Good one!

My wife bought a hand full of Hot Wheels cars off the clearance rack for the grandkids last week, and one of the cars didn't even have real wheels. Just fake wheels (non-turning, no axles) molded in. So maybe that Stellantis/Mattel acquisition finally went through?

StraitGate posted on 2023-02-01 23:24:35 Reply Private Reply

#20: Pinguinite To: Dakmar (#3)

Seems to me from the stories that the industry didn't really have much time to refine the engineering as they have with standard piston engines. If burning a fuel can make a shaft turn, it seems there has to be a a way to harness the energy of motion in any manner of ways, and also to reduce the size of the engine as has been done over the years with piston engine tech. Your suggestion of having it generate electricity would effectively make that electric current replace the drive shaft.

I consider the modern automotive piston engine and drive train in the average car to be a master of advanced engineering. If automotive turbine engines had as much engineering put into it, I'd expect they could be quite small and much more efficient.

Pinguinite posted on 2023-02-02 13:57:01 Reply Private Reply

#21: Pinguinite To: Dakmar (#11)

To: Esso I always wondered if the gyro effect from the turbine affected handling. It seems like there would be a lot more rotating mass than an ICE would have.

Good thought but on most race tracks the cars are only turning left anyway so that would be a bonus.

Pinguinite posted on 2023-02-02 13:59:17 Reply Private Reply

#22: StraitGate To: Dakmar (#11)

If the turbine's axis of rotation is longitudinal and on the center line of the car, then in a turn the turbine's gyroscopic torque will cause a load transfer from the back wheels to the front wheels, or vice versa, depending on the turbine's direction of rotation and the direction of the turn.

The wheels' gyroscopic torque in a turn will cause a load transfer from the inside wheels to the outside wheels.

That's all according to some seemingly authoritative posters on this racing forum:

www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5981

StraitGate posted on 2023-02-02 15:12:26 Reply Private Reply

Source:	Ed's Auto Reviews
Published:	Feb 1, 2023
Author:	Ed's Auto Reviews
Post Date:	2023-02-01 18:19:39 by Esso
Views:	1907

Jet Plane on Wheels: The History of the Chrysler Turbine Car Program